1
10
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
William Hallissey "Billy" Sullivan Jr. with Governor Dukakis and Mayor Flynn
Subject
The topic of the resource
Boston (Mass.)--Officials and employees
Dukakis, Michael S.
Flynn, Raymond L.
Sullivan Jr., William Hallissey "Billy"
Description
An account of the resource
Billy Sullivan, owner of the NFL Patriots, with Mayor Flynn and Governor Dukakis.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boston City Archives
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Mayor Raymond L. Flynn records, 0246.001
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Boston City Archives, Boston
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1985
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Monica Haberny
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the Boston City Archives. Rights status is not evaluated.
Relation
A related resource
<p>View the catalog record to the <a href="archives.cityofboston.gov/repositories/2/resources/52" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Mayor Raymond L. Flynn records </a>for more related information.</p>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
JPEG (Image coding standard)
Language
A language of the resource
N/A
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RF_0528
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Boston (Mass.)
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33ce7cd7df7222ecdd45bdf148462d44
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Paper
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
What is the problem? What is de facto segregation?
Subject
The topic of the resource
African American youth--Massachusetts--Boston
Boston (Mass.)--History
Boston (Mass.)--Race Relations--History--20th Century
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Discrimination in education--Massachusetts--Boston
Race awareness--Boston
School integration--Massachusetts--Boston
Segregation in education--United States
Description
An account of the resource
A notice containing information regarding de facto segregation in Boston.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
NAACP, Boston Branch
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
School Committee Secretary Desegregation Files 1963-1984 (bulk: 1974–1976). Box 1, folder 12: NAACP hearings, 1963-1965.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Boston City Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1963
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anderson, Connor M.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the Boston City Archives. Rights status is not evaluated.
Relation
A related resource
<p>View the <a href="http://www.cityofboston.gov/images_documents/Guide%20to%20the%20School%20Committee%20Secretary%20Desegregation%20files_tcm3-23346.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> to the School Committee Secretary Desegregation Files 1963-1984 (bulk: 1974–1976) for more related information</p>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
JPEG (Image coding standard)
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
0405004-001-012-002
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Boston, MA
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2d887391dc0ae9032532e96afa7660ac
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Louise Day Hicks papers, 1971-1975.
Subject
The topic of the resource
<span>Boston Public Schools</span><br /><span>Busing for school integration</span><br /><span>Hicks, Louise Day, 1916-2003 <br />School integration--Massachusetts--Boston--History</span>
Description
An account of the resource
The papers of Louise Day Hicks, 1971-1975 (1974-1975, bulk), are located in the Boston City Archives. See the <a title="Louise Day Hicks papers" href="http://www.cityofboston.gov/images_documents/Guide%20to%20the%20Louise%20Day%20Hicks%20papers_tcm3-37481.pdf">finding aid</a> for more information about the collection.<br /><br /><br />
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Louise Day Hicks
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Louise Day Hicks papers, 1971-1975 (1974-1975, bulk), Boston City Archives. See the <a title="Louise Day Hicks papers" href="http://www.cityofboston.gov/images_documents/Guide%20to%20the%20Louise%20Day%20Hicks%20papers_tcm3-37481.pdf">finding aid</a> for an inventory of items in the collection.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Boston City Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1971-1975
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Kayla Zaremski, Boston City Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Items from the Louise Day Hicks papers, exhibited on this site, are made available for research and educational purposes by the Boston City Archives. Rights status is not evaluated.
Relation
A related resource
View the <a title="Louise Day Hicks papers" href="http://www.cityofboston.gov/images_documents/Guide%20to%20the%20Louise%20Day%20Hicks%20papers_tcm3-37481.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> of the Louise Day Hicks papers for a full inventory of items in the collection.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
0.75 Cubic feet (2 file boxes)
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
9800.015
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
West Roxbury Information Center Fact Sheet for Parents of Boston
Subject
The topic of the resource
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Race awareness—Massachusetts--Boston
Race relations--History--20th Century
School integration--Massachusetts--Boston
Segregation in education--United States
Description
An account of the resource
A fact sheet for parents of Boston provided by the West Roxbury Information Center. This fact sheet is particularly on information for summer activities.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Redacted Address, West Roxbury Information Center
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Louise Day Hicks papers, 1971-1975
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Boston City Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
Unknown
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sherman, Rachel
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the Boston City Archives. Rights status is not evaluated.
Relation
A related resource
View the <a href="http://archives.cityofboston.gov/repositories/2/resources/685">finding aid</a> to the Louise Day Hicks, 1974-1979 for more related information.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
JPEG (Image coding standard)
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
9800015-002-007-015
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
West Roxbury, MA
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
United States Marshal Service Operation Plan 76-2
Subject
The topic of the resource
Boston (Mass.)—Race Relations--History—20th Century
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Police patrol—Massachusetts--Boston
Description
An account of the resource
Operations plan that outlines "Operation Quarterback" which details the execution of added law enforcement presence by the U.S. Marshals service on the first day of school and the beginning of Phase II implementation.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
United States. Marshals Service
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
RG 527 Morgan V. Hennigan Case Files, 1972-1991, Boston Schools Desegregation Case, Box 01
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
National Archives, Boston
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1975-08
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Dunham, Cheyenne
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
The work is made available by the National Archives, Boston, Massachusetts.
Relation
A related resource
<span>View the </span><a href="https://catalog.archives.gov/id/4713835" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">catalog record</a><span> to <em>Morgan v. Hennigan</em> Case Files, 1972-1991, Boston Schools Desegregation Case, for more related information.</span>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
JPEG (Image coding standard)
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Operations_Plan_76-2_01-29
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Boston (Mass.)
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tallulah Morgan et al v. James W. Hennigan et al Case File
Subject
The topic of the resource
Boston (Mass.)—Race Relations--History—20th Century
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Civil rights--Massachusetts--Boston
Race awareness—Massachusetts--Boston
Race relations--History--20th Century
School integration--Massachusetts--Boston
Segregation in education--United States
Description
An account of the resource
This file unit consists of the civil action case of <em>Tallulah Morgan et al v. James W. Hennigan et al</em>, a class action lawsuit brought in 1972 by the parents of African American children alleging that the Boston School Committee violated the 14th Amendment of the U. S. Constitution by a deliberate policy of racial segregation. Included are the complaint, motions, briefs, transcripts of hearings, Boston School Committee meeting transcripts, enrollment records, memorandums, letters and other correspondence, judgments, affidavits, depositions, interrogatories, and other records.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
U.S. District Court for the District of Massachusetts. 1789-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Record Group 21: Records of District Courts of the United States, 1685 - 2009; Series: Civil Action Case Files, 1938 - 1998. National Archives, Boston.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
National Archives, Boston
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1972 - 1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
National Archives, Boston
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the National Archives, Boston. Rights status is not evaluated.
Relation
A related resource
Record Group 21: Records of District Courts of the United States, 1685 - 2009; Series: Civil Action Case Files, 1938 - 1998. National Archives, Boston.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
52 linear feet
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
4713835
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Boston (Mass.)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
United States Government Memorandum
Subject
The topic of the resource
Boston (Mass.)—Race Relations--History—20th Century
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Police patrol—Massachusetts--Boston
Description
An account of the resource
Memorandum to John W. Cameron of the U.S. Marshals discussing plans for the increased stationing of law enforcement in Phase II.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
John A. Birknes, Jr.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
NAID (National Archives Identifier) 4713835. Tallulah Morgan et al v. James W. Hennigan et al Case File. Box 02. From Record Group 21: Records of District Courts of the United States, 1685-2009; Series: Civil Action Case Files, 1938-1998.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
National Archives, Boston
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1975-08-19
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Dunham, Cheyenne
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
The work is made available by the National Archives, Boston, Massachusetts.
Relation
A related resource
<span>View the </span><a href="https://catalog.archives.gov/id/4713835" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">catalog record</a><span> to <em>Morgan v. Hennigan</em> Case Files, 1972-1991, Boston Schools Desegregation Case, for more related information.</span>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
JPEG (Image coding standard)
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MorganvHenninganUSMarshall_Memorandum_to_Cameron_002-003
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Boston (Mass.)
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tallulah Morgan et al v. James W. Hennigan et al Case File
Subject
The topic of the resource
Boston (Mass.)—Race Relations--History—20th Century
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Civil rights--Massachusetts--Boston
Race awareness—Massachusetts--Boston
Race relations--History--20th Century
School integration--Massachusetts--Boston
Segregation in education--United States
Description
An account of the resource
This file unit consists of the civil action case of <em>Tallulah Morgan et al v. James W. Hennigan et al</em>, a class action lawsuit brought in 1972 by the parents of African American children alleging that the Boston School Committee violated the 14th Amendment of the U. S. Constitution by a deliberate policy of racial segregation. Included are the complaint, motions, briefs, transcripts of hearings, Boston School Committee meeting transcripts, enrollment records, memorandums, letters and other correspondence, judgments, affidavits, depositions, interrogatories, and other records.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
U.S. District Court for the District of Massachusetts. 1789-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Record Group 21: Records of District Courts of the United States, 1685 - 2009; Series: Civil Action Case Files, 1938 - 1998. National Archives, Boston.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
National Archives, Boston
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1972 - 1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
National Archives, Boston
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the National Archives, Boston. Rights status is not evaluated.
Relation
A related resource
Record Group 21: Records of District Courts of the United States, 1685 - 2009; Series: Civil Action Case Files, 1938 - 1998. National Archives, Boston.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
52 linear feet
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
4713835
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Boston (Mass.)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
U.S. Marshal's Field Commander Reference Booklet-Charlestown High School
Subject
The topic of the resource
Boston (Mass.)—Race Relations--History—20th Century
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Police administration--Massachusetts—Boston
Police patrol—Massachusetts--Boston
Description
An account of the resource
Booklet prepared for the use of field commanders during the fall's Phase II implementation, compilation of information to use in devising order maintenance strategies.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Robert J. DiGrazia
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
NAID (National Archives Identifier) 4713835. Tallulah Morgan et al v. James W. Hennigan et al Case File. Box 02. From Record Group 21: Records of District Courts of the United States, 1685-2009; Series: Civil Action Case Files, 1938-1998.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
National Archives, Boston
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1975-07
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Dunham, Cheyenne
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
The work is made available by the National Archives, Boston, Massachusetts.
Relation
A related resource
<span>View the </span><a href="https://catalog.archives.gov/id/4713835" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">catalog record</a><span> to the Tallulah Morgan et al v. James W. Hennigan et al Case File for more related information.</span>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
JPEG (Image coding standard)
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MorganvHenniganUSMarshall_Charlestown_HS_July_1975_001-29
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Boston (Mass.)
-
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abcbdd5863e681cf2a8c0693d9d11b44
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tallulah Morgan et al v. James W. Hennigan et al Case File
Subject
The topic of the resource
Boston (Mass.)—Race Relations--History—20th Century
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Civil rights--Massachusetts--Boston
Race awareness—Massachusetts--Boston
Race relations--History--20th Century
School integration--Massachusetts--Boston
Segregation in education--United States
Description
An account of the resource
This file unit consists of the civil action case of <em>Tallulah Morgan et al v. James W. Hennigan et al</em>, a class action lawsuit brought in 1972 by the parents of African American children alleging that the Boston School Committee violated the 14th Amendment of the U. S. Constitution by a deliberate policy of racial segregation. Included are the complaint, motions, briefs, transcripts of hearings, Boston School Committee meeting transcripts, enrollment records, memorandums, letters and other correspondence, judgments, affidavits, depositions, interrogatories, and other records.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
U.S. District Court for the District of Massachusetts. 1789-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Record Group 21: Records of District Courts of the United States, 1685 - 2009; Series: Civil Action Case Files, 1938 - 1998. National Archives, Boston.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
National Archives, Boston
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1972 - 1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
National Archives, Boston
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the National Archives, Boston. Rights status is not evaluated.
Relation
A related resource
Record Group 21: Records of District Courts of the United States, 1685 - 2009; Series: Civil Action Case Files, 1938 - 1998. National Archives, Boston.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
52 linear feet
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
4713835
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Boston (Mass.)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
U.S. Marshal Armband
Subject
The topic of the resource
Boston (Mass.)—Race Relations--History—20th Century
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Police patrol—Massachusetts--Boston
Description
An account of the resource
Armband worn by U.S. Marshals on patrol as part of "Operation Quarterback" during early implementation of Phase II.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
U.S. Marshals
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
NAID (National Archives Identifier) 4713835. Tallulah Morgan et al v. James W. Hennigan et al Case File. Box 02. From Record Group 21: Records of District Courts of the United States, 1685-2009; Series: Civil Action Case Files, 1938-1998.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
National Archives, Boston
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1975
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Dunham, Cheyenne
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
The work is made available by the National Archives, Boston, Massachusetts.
Relation
A related resource
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Oral History Interview of Ruth Walsh (OH-047)
Moakley Archive and Institute
www.suffolk.edu/moakley
archives@suffolk.edu
Oral History Interview of Ruth Walsh
Interview Date: March 10, 2005
Interviewed by: Stephanie Tamilio, Suffolk University student from History 364: Oral History
Citation: Walsh, Ruth. Interviewed by Stephanie Tamilio. John Joseph Moakley Oral History
Project OH-047. 10 March 2005. Transcript and audio available. John Joseph Moakley Archive
and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, MA.
Copyright Information: Copyright ©2005, Suffolk University.
Interview Summary
Ms. Ruth Walsh reflects on her experiences growing up in the Brighton neighborhood of Boston,
Massachusetts, following the 1974 Garrity decision, which required students to be bused
between Boston neighborhoods with the intention of creating racial balance in the public schools.
Ms. Walsh discusses her education in the Boston Public Schools; the effects of the Garrity
decision on her family and neighborhood; the experiences of her children in the Cambridge
Public Schools; and her feelings about the decision and the importance of diversity.
Subject Headings
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Morgan v. Hennigan (379 F. Supp. 410)
Walsh, Ruth
Table of Contents
Introduction
p. 3 (00:00)
Ms. Walsh’s experiences being bused and how it affected
her family and neighborhood
Why busing didn’t work
p. 3 (00:34)
p. 12 (10:40)
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
1
�Busing in Cambridge and her children’s experiences
p. 14 (13:47)
The effects of busing on Boston
p. 16 (15:33)
More about Cambridge and her children’s experiences,
specifically those of her adopted biracial daughter
p. 18 (19:40)
The benefits of exposure to diversity
p. 23 (28:30)
Neighborhood dynamics
p. 23 (29:48)
Educational experiences
p. 27 (35:47)
Final thoughts
p. 33 (46:08)
Interview transcript begins on next page
Page 2 of 34
�OH-047 Transcript
This interview took place on Thursday, March 10, 2005, at the John Joseph Moakley Law
Library, Suffolk University Law School, 120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA.
Interview Transcript
STEPHANIE TAMILIO: Hi, my name is Stephanie Tamilio, and today is Thursday, March 10,
2005, and today I’m interviewing a woman who was involved in the desegregation/busing in
Boston in 1974.1 First I would like to begin our interview today by learning a little bit about
you. What is your full name?
RUTH WALSH: Ruth Walsh.
TAMILIO: How old are you?
WALSH: Forty-three.
TAMILIO: Forty-three, okay. What race are you?
WALSH: I’m white.
TAMILIO: Where did you grow up?
WALSH: In Brighton.
TAMILIO: Brighton, okay. Where did you live when the busing/desegregation started?
WALSH: In Brighton.
1
On June 21, 1974, Judge W. Arthur Garrity ruled in the case of Tallulah Morgan et al. v. James Hennigan et al.
(379 F. Supp. 410) that the Boston School Committee had “intentionally brought about and maintained racial
segregation” in the Boston Public Schools. When the school committee did not submit a workable desegregation
plan as the opinion had required, the court established a plan that called for some students to be bused from their
own neighborhoods to attend schools in other neighborhoods, with the goal of creating racial balance in the Boston
Public Schools. (See http://www.lib.umb.edu/archives/garrity2.html for more information)
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
3
�OH-047 Transcript
TAMILIO: In Brighton. Okay, so you’ve lived there—
WALSH: I lived there until I was twenty.
TAMILIO: Great, okay. How old were you then when it first started when you were in school?
WALSH: Twelve.
TAMILIO: Twelve, okay. Where did you go to school?
WALSH: At that time it was—the year it started I was at Edison Middle School—or junior
high, I don’t remember what they called it—in Brighton.
TAMILIO: And then, now—when it started, were you bused to another school?
WALSH: Well, that wasn’t my neighborhood school. We had to go there because it would be
integrated if they—we couldn’t go to the Taft which was right by our house. So that was the
way we were affected. It was still in Brighton. We had to go—we didn’t have a choice.
TAMILIO: You had to go there.
WALSH: So we had to take a bus there.
TAMILIO: So right when you started going into middle school is when it began there?
WALSH: Right, in the seventh grade, yeah.
TAMILIO: And so normally, if the desegregation hadn’t—
WALSH: I would have went to the one right by my house.
Page 4 of 34
�OH-047 Transcript
TAMILIO: So you were bused, then.
WALSH: Kind of, yeah.
TAMILIO: Right. Do you have brothers and sisters?
WALSH: Yes.
TAMILIO: Okay. Did they go to the same school as you when the busing/desegregation
began?
WALSH: A couple of them.
TAMILIO: Okay. How many brothers and sisters do you have?
WALSH: Ten. (laughs)
TAMILIO: Ten! Oh my gosh! Where do you fall?
WALSH: I’m eighth.
TAMILIO: You’re eighth. Okay, so all of the—were some of the older ones already out of
school?
WALSH: They were already graduated. There was just four of us—five of us still in school.
TAMILIO: So five of you were still in school out of the ten (laughter) and—okay, so you
had—so the two younger than you were obviously still in elementary school.
WALSH: Right. They weren’t affected. They were still in their same elementary schools.
Page 5 of 34
�OH-047 Transcript
TAMILIO: They weren’t affected.
WALSH: Right. One is the same age as me, so she was with me.
TAMILIO: You’re a twin?
WALSH: Yeah, and then one a little bit older, so he was in high school.
TAMILIO: Did he have to change schools at all?
WALSH: No.
TAMILIO: So he wasn’t affected. So you and the two—and the other sister who’s your twin
were affected.
WALSH: Right.
TAMILIO: Okay, great. What were you told about it when it was about to happen and what
did you think when you were first told?
WALSH: (pauses to think) I remember it about to happen because it was very controversial
and it was in the news. I remember family—my older sister and my mother arguing about it. I
just—I thought it was ridiculous, although for different reasons than I think now it was ridiculous
because now I can look back on it.
TAMILIO: So you think it is ridiculous now too but for different reasons?
WALSH: Yes, right, yeah. It was just disruptive. It totally changed the neighborhood I grew
up in, because for the year from sixth grade to seventh grade it was a very white neighborhood,
Page 6 of 34
�OH-047 Transcript
so lots of my friends happened to be white—not everybody—and they all moved away from the
city.
TAMILIO: They all moved.
WALSH: So that affected me more that way than it did in school I think.
TAMILIO: Right, with all your friends moving away in the neighborhood because of this.
WALSH: Right, like socially, more than educationally.
TAMILIO: Right. And so you were probably planning on going to the same school with all of
those friends at the Taft School.
WALSH: Right. I remember the first day of school at the Edison, and they were saying the
names and we would say, Moved, moved. We’d answer for our friends who weren’t there or at
parochial school, which some of them would go to parochial school anyway because that’s
always been popular. So that was the biggest change. I mean, it was probably weird to go to a
different school, but that was no big deal. It was still in Brighton. But to have the whole—a lot
of the neighborhood change over less than a year was very unusual.
TAMILIO: Exactly. Wow. You mentioned that your mother and your sister had gotten into a
fight, so were your parents for the desegregation/busing?
WALSH: No.
TAMILIO: No, not at all?
WALSH: No. Yeah, my mother was against it and my older sister was for it.
Page 7 of 34
�OH-047 Transcript
TAMILIO: Ok, and why would you say that you older sister were for it and you mother were
against it?
WALSH: My mother was against it, and I totally—I remember—I don’t know why I remember
this—I guess because they never argued in front of me, and they did then. It was in the car.
Because my mother saw it [as] what I still think it was, as a class issue. I remember her saying,
and she’s been dead a long time, “None of the school committee children are being affected—
member children are being affected.” She saw it as a class thing. She wasn’t at all racist or
anything. So she didn’t mind about kids mixing in schools, that type of thing.
My sister was totally for it, because the schools were a mess and something—well, probably for
a lot of children, but especially for children in the areas that were all black because it’s been
proven that they didn’t get the money that the schools in white areas [did]. I’ve read a lot about
it over the years. And I remember—my sister was just more liberal, she was in her twenties by
then, so she was for it, but I don’t know if she’d still be for it because she saw what—it didn’t
really work, I think. I mean, that’s my opinion. (laughs)
I totally—and I don’t remember my father—I don’t remember him saying—what he ever said
about it, but I remember my mother, and my mother saw it more as they were just moving
around the lower working class kids more than anybody else. I don’t know if she ever thought
it—I don’t know if she ever thought what it would do to the system but she just didn’t think it
was fair.
TAMILIO: So your mother was more outspoken about it than your father, and she didn’t
care—
WALSH: Yeah, I don’t remember my dad—what he said about it at all. He might have, I just
don’t remember.
TAMILIO: Okay. Did you, at the time, being twelve years old, agree, or have any opinion at
all about it?
Page 8 of 34
�OH-047 Transcript
WALSH: I think I didn’t want it to happen because I didn’t want anything to change. It wasn’t
like—the schools in Brighton themselves were often paired—were already paired with Mission
Hill. Like Brighton High already—there was no public high school in Mission Hill then, so the
students from there always went to Brighton High. So it was already integrated. So it wasn’t
like, “I’ve only gone to a school with kids who look like me and all of a sudden I’m going to be
mixed and it’s going to be different,” or whatever, But it was more—you know, it was so
disruptive. It was so disruptive.
TAMILIO: So the fact that—when you were twelve years old you might not have even actually
thought about what—you know, [you didn’t think,] Is this a good things for everybody to be
mixing up?
WALSH: Exactly, right, right.
TAMILIO: [You didn’t think,] Are we getting more funding for schools? You were obviously
just thinking about, at twelve years old—
WALSH: Myself! And my neighborhood. (laughs)
TAMILIO: Right, which is normal. Right. So it was disruptive for you because of your social
life.
WALSH: Social life, but not like social life. You know, just neighborhood demographics or
friends leaving. All that kind of stuff.
TAMILIO: Right, friends leaving.
WALSH: People being nervous about it and all that.
Page 9 of 34
�OH-047 Transcript
TAMILIO: Okay. Do you remember vividly the first day? Would you like to describe the first
day, particularly, for us, and what that was like?
WALSH: You know, I do remember—I think it’s the first day, if not it’s the first week. We
had to take a bus, so that was unusual, even though we weren’t going to another neighborhood—
part of Boston—we were going to Brighton. So we got a bus, so that was weird to me. But
whatever, that’s okay, my kids always take buses to school. (laughs)
TAMILIO: But normally you would have been able to walk to the Taft School?
WALSH: I would have walked two blocks away to the Taft. So we got a bus, so that felt weird
because the buses were also in the news and all that kind of stuff. People near the school at the
Edison threw rocks at the buses, even though it was a bus from down the street. It didn’t matter.
It was the symbol, I think, of—they thought there were people coming from another part, or—I
don’t know what it was. But I remember all that kind of stuff happening the first week. Not in
school, school was fine. But I remember the news. But it was nothing like it was, like, at
Southie High2 and stuff like that. It was just some little punks throwing rocks a couple days, and
that was it. Other than that it was just a regular school year, as much as I can remember.
TAMILIO: Ok, so the first week—
WALSH: Like I loved the school.
TAMILIO: Oh good, so you ended up liking it. So the first week people—you witnessed
people throwing rocks at your bus—
WALSH: At the bus I was on! (laughs)
TAMILIO: My gosh!
2
“Southie” refers to South Boston, a neighborhood that was significantly affected by the Garrity decision. Many of
its residents were adamantly opposed to the desegregation plan. Much of the violence that was a result of the plan
happened in South Boston.
Page 10 of 34
�OH-047 Transcript
WALSH: It was like, “Ahh! I probably know you!” You know what I mean? (laughter) They
probably didn’t think about what they were doing. It was like, “Oh, there’s a bus, and kids on
TV are throwing rocks at buses, so I’m going to.” You know what I mean?
TAMILIO: It was kind of a retaliation.
WALSH: I think so.
TAMILIO: So it wasn’t parents or anything like that?
WALSH: No, it was nothing like that. No, no. Absolutely not.
TAMILIO: So just children being punks—
WALSH: I don’t remember anything parents being verbally involved that I know.
TAMILIO: That you knew of.
WALSH: There might have been stuff like meetings or something, but I wouldn’t have known
about them.
TAMILIO: Right, at twelve years old. So you would go in school after that—once you got in
school, even the first week, everything was normal?
WALSH: Oh yeah, it was just a normal middle school.
TAMILIO: Besides that people on the first day might have called out their names, you would
say they moved.
Page 11 of 34
�OH-047 Transcript
WALSH: Yeah, that was kind of weird. But yeah, that happened again when I went to high
school because then people continued to leave the system.
TAMILIO: Okay, so people just kept leaving?
WALSH: Yeah, yeah. People that I knew or had already been in school with for years.
TAMILIO: Alright, so that—violence happened during the first week. Can you remember any
then, since the first week was really where you remember any violence, was there any—so other
than the rock throwing, is there any violence you can think of that might have happened?
WALSH: No, not at all. I would probably have known. It wasn’t a big school. I think I would
have—or through my siblings, but not that I know of.
TAMILIO: Yeah. And how were you treated? Just normally?
WALSH: Oh, fine. Oh, yeah. (laughs)
TAMILIO: You said that you did notice the news and stuff, so were you aware of the media?
WALSH: Yes.
TAMILIO: How did that make you feel? Did that make you nervous, or—
WALSH: It made me a little nervous to take a bus, in a way, but we ended up walking a lot
because it wasn’t that far away. It just made me nervous thinking that it could spread. It did
happen a tiny bit, but that it could happen more—but I think I knew it wasn’t going to happen in
Brighton, or I hadn’t gotten the feeling it was, but it did make me a bit nervous. Just riding on
the bus and feeling like everyone’s looking at the bus because it was an unusual thing in
Brighton to have school buses. (laughs) Except for like one or two that went to boys’ Catholic
schools or something in West Roxbury—you know, like chartered buses.
Page 12 of 34
�OH-047 Transcript
TAMILIO: So in hindsight, and I think you mentioned this, but do you think that the
desegregation motive worked successfully at all?
WALSH: Did it work successfully?
TAMILIO: Mm-hmm.
WALSH: I don’t know statistics, a lot, but no, I don’t think it worked. No.
TAMILIO: Right. And why would you say that?
WALSH: First of all it pitted working class people against working class people. They just
were different colors, but if you pictured some of the communities where there was trouble—it
didn’t involve everybody in the city, or every school, and it didn’t really help the schools. The
schools lost a lot of students. They lost a lot of families who had more money, who were
typically the voters, so then the school committee isn’t so beholden to the voters, I think. I think
that that that’s how it is. Not that other people don’t vote, but just the people who give to their
campaigns and were maybe more politically active. And so I don’t—I know there are some
schools that are fine in Boston, but I wouldn’t—I’d be worried about them if I had to send my
kids there.
TAMILIO: Right. So you think that the people that had the money to give to the schools in the
first place—
WALSH: To give to the school committee.
TAMILIO: —also had the money to move at that time?
WALSH: Right, like those kind of—the people whose votes they were really after. That’s how
it still works today. But they left the system. They didn’t always move away, they just went into
Page 13 of 34
�OH-047 Transcript
private schools. But they had less invested in the schools, and I think the school committee then
wasn’t so accountable. And I know lots of them [school committee members] had kids who
never went to public schools, and to me that doesn’t make any sense.
TAMILIO: In the school committee.
WALSH: If you’re in the committee (laughs), I mean, their kids should be there.
TAMILIO: Right. Exactly.
WALSH: So I see it—no, I don’t think it worked at all. At least in Brighton it didn’t work.
TAMILIO: Looking back thirty years later, I know you said for different reasons—so you
obviously—you feel the same but you said for different reasons now?
WALSH: Right, because then I didn’t understand what it would do to the population of the city
and to neighborhoods as much. When I was younger it was just more what was—thinking
immediately around me. And now I just think as a whole (pauses) goal to integrate—I think it’s
great to have integrated schools, I just don’t like how they did it.
TAMILIO: How they did it.
WALSH: I believe in schools being integrated. I guess I should say that because I don’t want to
come across as thinking everyone should be segregated. But I think it should be equal, and the
money should be equal and it should be a lot of parent—parental choice, which is what I’ve had
in Cambridge for fourteen years. So I think there is other ways to do it, but I also think they
didn’t know how to do it a lot back then. But it was too much of a—it was too drastic at the
time.
TAMILIO: Okay. Right. So you’re—are you living in Cambridge now?
Page 14 of 34
�OH-047 Transcript
WALSH: Yeah.
TAMILIO: Is Cambridge the only other city you’ve lived in since Brighton?
WALSH: Basically. Other than New York a little while. But yeah, Cambridge basically.
TAMILIO: Cambridge. Is Cambridge still doing busing?
WALSH: They—it’s voluntary so you pick your—and it’s only at the elementary school level,
K to eight, and you pick your top so many schools and as long as it matches—well, this is how it
used to be—as long as it matches by race and boys and girls, stuff like that, you’d get your top
choice and there are free school buses to wherever you want to go. So your neighborhood
schools had a little bit of preference but not totally. So you don’t really get to pick easily your
neighborhood school but there’s thirteen—now there’s eleven, but there were thirteen elementary
schools and all of them had slightly different bends to how they taught and all that kind of stuff.
Now they are actually doing it by economics. I’m not so sure that that’s a good way to do it
either, but that started a couple of years ago. So now it’s actually less about race and more about
economics. So it goes by people’s income—and that’s only for the elementary because there is
only one public high school, so everyone just goes there (laughs) if they went to public schools.
TAMILIO: So everyone will be together then?
WALSH: Yeah.
TAMILIO: Do you have children now?
WALSH: Yup.
TAMILIO: Okay, and how many children do you have?
WALSH: Two.
Page 15 of 34
�OH-047 Transcript
TAMILIO: Two. And what is their ages and genders?
WALSH: They’re both girls, and one is nineteen and one is twelve.
TAMILIO: And one’s twelve. And they’re in the Boston Public Schools, are they?
WALSH: Well, the nineteen-year-old is in college.
TAMILIO: She’s in college. And was she in the Boston Public School system?
WALSH: In the Cambridge Public Schools, not Boston.
TAMILIO: Okay, and the twelve-year-old—
WALSH: The twelve-year-old is in the Cambridge Public Schools.
TAMILIO: Okay, great. And so you obviously weren’t so affected by the busing that you
wouldn’t have put your own children in it. Is that the way you feel about it, or do you feel—
WALSH: Probably. I don’t know if I would have had a choice at the time they started school
anyway to send a kid to private school, but I love the idea of public schools. Even if I lived in
Boston I probably would have at least started out in a public school. Because I also know,
because I went to a public high school, what people’s perception of it is often totally different
than what the school was. I always got really dumb comments about my school. You know, “I
see knives,” and “Do people bring guns?” And this was even more before you heard of kids
bringing weapons around. This is the seventies. (laughs) So I also know that even though you
hear things about schools, it’s not always true.
TAMILIO: It’s not always true. Right.
Page 16 of 34
�OH-047 Transcript
WALSH: So you just have to experience and see—or look into it more. Both the girls went
through—either went through or are going through public, but one’s now in college.
TAMILIO: Do you have any other—do you have any sons or any—?
WALSH: No, just two girls.
TAMILIO: Is there anything else you would like to say about your experience that you haven’t
already mentioned?
WALSH: (pauses to think) I don’t know. I don’t think so. I’m not sure. Well, I think it was
horrible for Boston. It really hurt Boston. There were other factors that hurt Boston around the
same time—businesses and different things that affected the economy. But I really think busing
was one of the worst things they could have done to it in terms of just losing a lot of the
population that may have stayed. I mean, people always moved out of the city, and lots of new
people have come into the city, which is fine. But just for it changing so quickly I don’t think
was good. And part of—of the friends I had who stayed in Boston, none of them used the public
schools. Even the ones that I believe couldn’t afford—the public schools, with four kids or
whatever, none of them used it. My brother left West Roxbury after a few years because he had
four kids and he didn’t want to deal with the public schools. And just a lot of people I know
have done that, and so I think that’s a shame because you might want to stay in the neighborhood
you are in and if you’re afraid of the schools—and they’re not afraid of the schools because of
busing. They are afraid of what happened to the schools, partially as a result of funding, partially
it’s because of funding. It’s a big system and it’s hard to run, probably—lots of different
reasons.
TAMILIO: Right. Lots of different reasons. And what do you think that—do you have
anything that you think would have been a better solution, because I know you said busing you
don’t think was the solution to the desegregation—what would you say—
Page 17 of 34
�OH-047 Transcript
WALSH: At least the busing the way they did—the forced busing. I’m not sure how you could
really do it to make it a perfect world, but it was more—if money was more equally distributed
that every kid got the same type of education, it wouldn’t have pit communities against each
other who were both very similar in terms of economics and all that kind of thing. It may not
have made a lot of people leave the city who would have stayed and invested in the city, bought
their own houses and things like that. Like in Brighton, everyone who left their house, it would
turn into student housing. Nothing against students—my daughter’s a student (laughs)—but that
doesn’t make a family neighborhood. Well, it does—a mix does, but there’s whole streets where
there’s no families; they can’t afford it. You know, the rents are higher where there’s so many
students. Which is—there’s a lot of good things about that, but it changed the way—it seemed
like it felt like a town. It still feels like a town, but it’s weird that the schools aren’t something
that a lot of people—people don’t use them.
TAMILIO: Okay. And how do you think—you said that Cambridge uses economics as their
way of desegregating. Do you think that that seems like a better way?
WALSH: I think there should be some combination of the two because I think it’s important to
have a balance racially, but I also see that it’s also economical, and income level of families also
makes a huge difference—but not always so. I kind of thought Cambridge should have stayed
with what they were doing. It’s a little—because personally in Cambridge, we have so many
people that are just there for a while because there are so many graduate student families. So
there are people from all over the world, which is nice, but their income level is really, really,
really low because they are graduate students. So no matter what their color is or whatever, they
can mix them in. But they’re families who aren’t staying anyway because they are only here for
a couple of years—which is fine, they have a right to do that.
But it doesn’t—people know that people who are in school—it doesn’t matter what your income
level is, you’re going to eventually be really wealthy, or maybe you won’t, but it doesn’t make a
whole lot of sense because people’s incomes change all the time. I was laid off a year and a half
ago so for a year my income looked horrible, but it was never that before. And no matter what
my income level is I think I’ve always been encouraging my kids for their education. So you can
Page 18 of 34
�OH-047 Transcript
argue it all over the place, I think, because you can be really poor and still be—it’s sort of
insulting that they act like, Well, we have to match because the wealthier kids’ families are more
into their education than the poorer kids’ families. Which isn’t necessarily true.
TAMILIO: It’s almost like they’re saying—
WALSH: So in a way it’s better to have it racially integrated, but how do you do that? Races
are so mixed. My second daughter’s adopted, and she’s biracial. I don’t even know some of her
heritage, because her birth mother was adopted. So how do you totally mix races, too, if you
don’t even know what some people really—what they are supposed to be or whatever. I mean, I
know she’s half African American, but—I don’t know, it just can get a little—
I remember in school—I probably should have said this earlier—at attendance, they would
take—divided it by race, and they had white, black, or other. Some Chinese kids wanted to be
called other. Sometimes the Greek kids would want to be others, because they didn’t think of
themselves as white Americans. Maybe because they were—Brighton had a lot of—they were
just firstborn American Greeks. So if we had a sub, she would just say, “White,” and whoever
thought they were white would raise their hand. (laughs) I remember a sub saying to a boy who
was Greek, “What’s your background?” and he said, “Greek,” and she didn’t think of it as nonwhite. It’s just so—it doesn’t always work—it’s not so clear-cut. (laughs)
TAMILIO: So they had it divided on the attendance as different—
WALSH: White, black, and other. But some Asian Americans think of themselves as more
white, or some want themselves as other, and some want their own category. And anybody can
come up with—you know, anybody can think that. I remember thinking, That’s just bizarre!
(laughs) Why are they doing this? It was just dumb. When I was in high school I remember
that. I don’t know what it was like in junior high; I don’t remember. But I remember the poor
subs going crazy trying to figure out who was other, who was white and (laughs)—and they
didn’t have a Hispanic one, and of course lots of kids were Hispanic. Some were fair-skinned
and some were dark-skinned. What do they want to be? (laughs)
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TAMILIO: So it made a big confusion on top of it all. Oh my. Now, you said your second
daughter was adopted and she’s biracial. How is she treated at school in Cambridge would you
say?
WALSH: (pauses) I think she’s treated fine, but I’m more aware that she’s not white basically
because my other daughter is biologically—both her dad and I are white. I think I was probably
more worried about it at first. The only thing I saw us treated differently before was at the
airport.
TAMILIO: At the airport?
WALSH: By a security person. And that was more to do with—it was before he—I’m a single
parent, and I was traveling with her and we were coming back from England, and he said, “Does
her father know she was gone,” or something, “from the country?” Now, her birth father died
years ago, she doesn’t know him, and I’m single. And I’m trying to make sure she doesn’t
notice this man asking this. I was a travel agent for years and I’ve traveled tons of times with my
older daughter, and I was also single. No one ever asked me that type of thing, but it was
obvious that—I don’t know if it was—he might have just been doing his job, but I felt like—no
one asked me when I traveled with a white girl, why are you asking me now? Because I stood
out a little bit, or we stood out. But it terms of school, I don’t think so—
TAMILIO: She never mentions feeling—
WALSH: Never, ever. And I used to have to—I remember when she was younger, especially
after school, when I would pick her up from school, if I didn’t have my glasses on, there’d be
twelve other girls that were the same color as her (laughs) because she looks Hispanic, she—
whatever, it’s very mixed. No, I don’t—I haven’t seen anything and she hasn’t said anything.
TAMILIO: Which is great.
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WALSH: I think I thought something at first but it may have been more because they knew she
was just adopted. It wasn’t—because when she was halfway through kindergarten I adopted her,
and she came from the Boston Public Schools—she was in Boston Public Schools when I
adopted her.
TAMILIO: So she was already in Boston Public Schools?
WALSH: Yes, only for like five month, and then I adopted her and she moved to Cambridge.
So that was interesting because I got to spend a lot of time in school. (laughter)
TAMILIO: So it seems like, then, for as far as we know, that your daughter is treated pretty
fairly at school.
WALSH: Oh, yeah, yeah.
TAMILIO: Going back thirty years, if you were a parent and she was your daughter at the time
going to school, do you feel like she would have been treated the same as she is now?
WALSH: No, absolutely not.
TAMILIO: No?
WALSH: No, I don’t even know if in Cambridge she would have been, but definitely not in
Boston she wouldn’t have been. At least not in Brighton. No. She would have still been a little
different even though Brighton was a bit integrated already. The schools were. The town
wasn’t, but the schools were. (laughs)
TAMILIO: Now I know that other people have had issues with this, so now that you have a
white daughter and you have a mixed racial daughter, do you think that sending them both to
school—this is hypothetically, if you were back thirty years with your two daughters, sending
them to school—do you feel like they would be sent to the same school if they were—?
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WALSH: Oh, that’s interesting.
TAMILIO: Or if that would—
WALSH: I have no idea what they would have done with a biracial baby—person. When I
signed her up for kindergarten I happened to know that the kindergarten teacher wanted to get
her in his class. He had had my daughter and he had my nephew—you know, a family friend. I
said, “What color do you need?” And he told me, because at the school department in
Cambridge when you register your kid and they are biracial, you pick a color. There’s no
biracial. So I called her—I don’t even know what I called her, it was either white or black.
Whatever he needed to balance his class. So, I have no idea how Boston does it, because I said,
“She’s not white and she’s not just black,” and they said, “You have to pick one.” Isn’t that
bizarre, in 2005? (laughs)
TAMILIO: It is bizarre.
WALSH: Because there are so many families that they’re biracial, so I can’t believe they can’t
come up with a box for that. They have Asian/Pacific Islander, which we don’t have many of in
New England. (laughs) I mean, in her class there are lots of other kids that are biracial.
TAMILIO: Right. They should just make a box. (laughter)
WALSH: Exactly! Or no boxes.
TAMILIO: Or no boxes at all would be even better.
WALSH: But I have no idea what Boston would have—how they classify biracial students, so
what they would have done. I know what they would have done with my older daughter, but I
don’t know what they would have done with my younger daughter.
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TAMILIO: Right. So do you feel like it’s evident to you the difference between thirty years
ago and now about how a biracial student would have been treated, because—
WALSH: Well, I don’t have any proof of how it is, but my guess it it’s very different. My
guess is it’s hugely different,
TAMILIO: Yeah, definitely. You also said that before the busing/desegregation began, that
your neighborhood was mostly white, and you had mostly white friends—
WALSH: Probably like two-thirds white and one-third black. It was a housing project so it was
a little bit mixed, but not much.
TAMILIO: Okay, so when you went to school and—
WALSH: Yeah, I did, I lived there for a couple years and it was right around the time that
busing started. I’m just trying to remember what years I was there.
TAMILIO: Okay. Do you feel that when you did end up going to school there was obviously
more black children around you? Do you feel like that benefited you or didn’t benefit you in any
way when you were around more mixed races?
WALSH: (pauses to think) I certainly didn’t think it was—I never thought it was bad. In high
school I totally thought it benefited me. I don’t know what I thought in middle schools. I just
figured it was more like the real world to me. It was fine. I liked the fact that in school it was
mixed. Other people, maybe outside of Boston, or other kids in my neighborhood who didn’t go
to public school thought it was weird or scary. I was like, “No, it’s not.” We would just tease, or
make fun of those kids. (laughs) Or, “Go back to your school,” or whatever. I thought it was
good. I don’t remember middle school. I think I just thought it was kind of interesting because
there was a lot of kids that I wasn’t in elementary school with. So that was—but it almost felt
like moving towns, because so many kids left at the same time, so it was like—not everybody.
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In fact, two of my best friends to this day both moved that winter—or that summer out to the
suburbs, but they are two of my good friends still.
TAMILIO: Now were their families, your two friends that moved, just completely against the
whole issue?
WALSH: Totally, totally. One family especially could not afford to do it and they did anyway.
It was a dumb move. They would have been much better off staying. They were afraid—
whatever they were afraid of never happened anyway. The instability it caused their family was
horrible for years.
TAMILIO: Because of financially not being able to afford to—
WALSH: Because where they were—they lived in the housing project at that time and so it was
fine because their dad was sick and whatever. Paying their bills was easier than when they
moved out to Newton [a suburb west of Boston] and stuff. One family—I don’t know how
disruptive it was. It was disruptive to my friend. She was the youngest of the family. But her
older siblings were all out of school. I can remember where she lived especially. There were
like three other families that all moved that summer, because their parents didn’t want to deal
with it. It was scary the fact that you don’t know where your kid might be going to school, and I
can see why people don’t want to send their kids far away to school no matter what the reason.
And I’m sure families who were African American probably moved as well for the same reason.
Although, I know a lot of the families did it because it was racism, I’m sure. A lot of families did
it for that reason. But racism because they were afraid of what they didn’t know, I think. I don’t
know if they were totally racist, but it was more like that. So that was—it was weird in the
neighborhood. We moved not that long after that, but just to another part of Brighton, so it had
nothing to do with that.
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TAMILIO: So you said that your friends’ parents were maybe just afraid of what they didn’t
know, but you also mentioned that about two-thirds of your neighborhood were white and about
one-third of them were black—
WALSH: Well, a little bit more white than that. Probably 80 percent, actually. I was wrong.
And there was no trouble in the neighborhood. It was very kind of—
TAMILIO: Just everyone did their own—
WALSH: Everything was fine. I had friends who were both races. Probably not your closest
friends because kids sort of go towards people who look just like them, I think, but it was a mix.
The elementary school was mixed. But even some of the—I know some of those families left,
too, because they didn’t want to deal with it either.
TAMILIO: So do you feel like in your neighborhood that people kind of segregated themselves
within the neighborhood even? Between the—if they were white, they hung out with the whites
in the neighborhood, and the blacks—
WALSH: A little bit. Not too much. The kids didn’t—I think the adults probably did, but the
kids didn’t.
TAMILIO: Not the kids, just the adults?
WALSH: Yes. Little kids didn’t at all. As they got older, they probably did, but little kids
didn’t. It wasn’t like a big issue. At least that I remember.
TAMILIO: Were your parents and your friends’ parents—were they friendly with each other?
Did they talk about the issue together?
WALSH: (pauses to think) I’m sure they did. I’m positive they did. I don’t remember if they
did, but they would have been totally against it, for sure. I know that for a—I’m positive about
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that, so I must remember something. (laughs) But yeah, they would have all been totally against
it.
TAMILIO: When it’s all said and done, you have sort of mixed feeling about it. Because you
did say that in high school you thought it was great, you liked having—did you meet all different
kids of people?
WALSH: Well, Brighton High was already integrated, so whether there was busing or not it
was an already integrated high school. They had a lot of white and black kids from Brighton and
then a lot of kids of both colors, but mostly African American, from Mission Hill. So—but I
guess if we did—Brighton was integrated anyway, but I’m glad that I went to a high school that
was integrated. So whatever reason it was integrated, I think that’s how it should be.
TAMILIO: For whatever reason, you think that’s how it should be.
WALSH: And that’s what I want for my kids too, even before I had a daughter who is not all
white. So, you know, I just think it’s better that way.
TAMILIO: Ok, great.
WALSH: If you live in a city. I mean, if you live somewhere it can’t be, whatever. But people,
they shouldn’t have—be too segregated or whatever in the schools. Or anywhere.
TAMILIO: So you believe in desegregation, just not the busing part of it. Is that what you’re
saying?
WALSH: How Boston did it, or how the busing went in Boston. No, I totally disagree with
what they did. But I totally disagree with how the schools were before that too, so I know they
had to do something. Not all the schools. But I know—did you ever read that book about
Boston Public Schools—(pauses to think)—I know I was going to look it up before the
interview. He writes a lot about schools, and he wrote a book about the Bronx. Anyways, years
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ago he was a sub in a Boston school that was all African American, and it was deplorable. I
didn’t read that as a kid. I don’t know when it was published. But like I know that and many
elementary schools were in bad shape. I know it was wrong how it was before, that the
neighborhoods that were poorer had worse schools and all that. And that’s not right either.
TAMILIO: Okay. So something needed to be done, just not the way they did it.
WALSH: Something had to be done. It had to be, because it was a federal law too, I suppose.
But not how they did it. I’m not sure how they should have done it, I haven’t really thought
about how they should have done it, but it really tore apart other places a lot more than it did
where I lived. So it was just not done well.
TAMILIO: Right. Were you friends with anybody from other areas? From South Boston or
anything like that?
WALSH: Not really. I mean, I may have known some people like cousins or friends’ cousins,
but no, not that I—
TAMILIO: Most people stayed—
WALSH: As an adult I met people who went sort of through it, but not at the time.
TAMILIO: Not at the time. And their experiences were—
WALSH: Were horrible.
TAMILIO: Horrible?
WALSH: Yeah, we had one friend who quit school and then she went to some prep school in
Boston and barely finished. It was horrible, because she was told to go to a school far away and
her mother didn’t want her to. And she’s my age, so it must been around the same year. So I do
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know some stories like that too, but I don’t know a whole lot because I mostly knew people
where I lived at the time.
TAMILIO: Do you think that your education was better or worse because of it, or do you
think—
WALSH: I think it’s probably the same. I mean, we had teachers that were all there for—I
mean, it looks the same as my sisters’ yearbooks from the sixties practically. (laughs) Although
having said that, it looked like it had—I don’t know if it was a fiscal problem or what, but there
were things that are better now in the building itself that weren’t then. So I don’t know if there
was just less money because so much had to be spent on busing and stuff like that. But no, I
think it was pretty much the—from what I heard from my older siblings it wasn’t that different
from how it was in the sixties.
And a few years after us, my younger sister—she went to parochial school. She was the only
one. I’m not sure—I don’t really know why she went, but we’re all sure she got the worst
education in the family. (laughs) But that was her, too. She could have been the same wherever
she went. Who knows. But she jokes around. But her school, which was hard for my mom to
pay for, had teachers who weren’t certified who weren’t making any money, because they didn’t
have to pay them. Because my brother worked for a time in a parochial school and nothing
against them, but there were some things bad about the schools that you had to pay for, too. And
they didn’t have—we had a lot more opportunity in terms of clubs and sports and after-school
activities than some of the smaller private schools did, so I liked that part about it, too. I think it
was fine. It was what it was, but it wasn’t affected by busing, at least then. I don’t know if it
changed after that.
TAMILIO: So your education just was what it was and it would have been that way probably—
WALSH: Yes, I think it would have been that way anyway.
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TAMILIO: Do you think that your parents decided to send your sister to parochial school for
maybe just having had enough with what had been going on, or do you think that—
WALSH: I’m not sure why they did it, because they almost sent me to parochial school, then
they almost sent me to school in another town for high school because they were nervous about
the high school. I forgot that. Because I have a lot of family in the suburbs and I was going to—
my mom thought my sister and I—because you heard rumors about that high school, but that
might happen a lot of places. So we almost went—we were going to stay somewhere with her
sister-in-law during the week, which that was a dumb idea. But anyway, we almost did that, and
then we almost went to a—there’s a huge parochial school, or was, in Brighton—well, it’s still
there, I just don’t know if it’s big—for girls, but then my mother has weird things about all-girls’
schools, so she didn’t want to send us there anyway. (laughs) Which would have been fine. I
mean, a lot of my nieces when there, and my cousins. But anyway, yeah, I think by then it was
just my mom—I think she also just wanted a smaller school I think. I think there was a bunch of
reasons. We lived right near it. I don’t know, there was a bunch of reasons.
TAMILIO: Do you think the rumors about the high school were—I know everybody was going
to be bused there—
WALSH: It was violence or—it wasn’t really so much about the education because I remember
my mother specifically saying that a lot of the education is up to the student. Usually the
teachers are—you can get bad teachers no matter where you go, and the teachers are there to
teach and what you choose to do with that—I mean, we were her eighth and ninth and tenth and
eleventh kids, so she saw all kinds of learning. And my family—my older siblings, we lived in
the suburbs, so they went to suburban high school. So she saw a few different kids, and she
knew a lot of it by high school was up to you. No matter what your parents said or no matter
where you went to school, you could choose to learn or not learn or goof off or not—you know,
whatever. So I’m not sure why—I should ask my younger sister if she knows why she was in
there. (laughs)
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I think my mother—I do remember, though, when she went to kindergarten, my younger sister—
she’s the youngest, there’s eleven of us all together, ten siblings—I do remember her coming
home talking with a total African American accent. (laughs) I remember it freaking out my
mother. We all thought it was kind of cute, but I think my mother wasn’t comfortable with the
changes. I don’t think she was comfortable having my younger sister one of the only white
children at whatever elementary school she was—in her class. She just thought that was weird,
and again it wasn’t like racism or anything because she was not at all racist, but I think it was
just weird to her. I don’t know what it was really—I’ll have to ask my sister—but I do
remember that, because it was my elementary school, but I think after a couple years of busing it
just totally turned to almost all African American, from Brighton, from wherever, because of
people moving. It was so funny, she would have a little accent, like a southern—and we used to
tease her. (laughter)
TAMILIO: That’s cute! Now, she was placed—when she went to the same elementary school
that you had gone to—
WALSH: It was a neighborhood elementary school.
TAMILIO: Right. Was she in a classroom that had mostly black students? Was she the
minority at that point?
WALSH: Totally. She was totally—a very small minority, I remember in her first couple years
of school. It was a tiny school, and I’m not sure why exactly that demographic—it changed so
quickly.
TAMILIO: Do you think that may have opened her up to other races and stuff at a very young
age and helped her in the long run?
WALSH: Younger than some of us because the elementary school we started in, in a different
part of Brighton, was probably mostly white. It was great for her. She loved it. It was fine. She
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had the same teachers and she had lots of friends, and she’s still to this day very—she’s fine, it’s
not—
TAMILIO: It wasn’t an issue?
WALSH: Oh, god no. Not at all. It was fine for her. She had fun through school. (laughs)
She loves everybody.
TAMILIO: So that’s something that maybe—you just said she loves everybody. Do you think
that maybe if somebody had gone to school with all white students, maybe they wouldn’t love
everybody?
WALSH: Yes. Probably.
TAMILIO: So that’s something that in a way—
WALSH: Because now we totally agree politically and stuff. But not on things like race and
stuff, but politics we do because as I tell her, she lives out in the suburbs. (laughs) But that’s
okay, that’s her opinion. But I don’t know if it would have been her because my family being so
large, and there’s always lots of people around and she got a big view of the world. But I’m not
sure. It probably did help her though, actually.
TAMILIO: Well, maybe in comparison, I know you have a lot of older siblings—did any of
them go to maybe that same elementary school, and were they in a classroom with all whites and
do you feel like maybe—
WALSH: Yeah, me.
TAMILIO: Oh, you did, right. There you go. So—
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WALSH: And my one sister and younger brother. It was mostly—like ninety percent white.
Not totally. I think there were maybe one or two kids who were African American. It totally
switched in a matter of like three years. Great school—it was a great school, and my little sister
was there, too. A little, tiny school. And it wasn’t—I don’t think other elementary schools in
Brighton changed like that. I don’t know why this one did. The color of the students totally
changed in a couple of years.
TAMILIO: And you don’t think that other elementary schools were affected as much?
WALSH: I’m pretty sure that a lot of them did eventually, but I don’t think that they did—I
think that they were in neighborhoods that were more white than where we lived at that time. I
think that probably did it.
TAMILIO: That was the neighborhood that got bused into that one—
WALSH: Yeah, or something. I don’t know why exactly. I would be interested to look back
and see what happened. But then we moved to a different neighborhood and maybe that was part
of the reason for going to the local—the Catholic school was right there and—I don’t know.
(pauses) What was good is she [her younger sister] made a lot of friends that were in the
neighborhood. Because in high school lots of our friends were scattered all over the place. So it
ended up that a lot of the friends we made around high school age actually didn’t go to our
school, because they lived in Brighton. So at CYO type things we’d meet them. Because you
didn’t—at least then, we didn’t have cars as much as kids do now. So you weren’t going to hop
on a train every Friday night to go what we thought was far away, across the city, to meet
somebody. So for my sister, that part was good about going to the local Catholic school because
everybody was from the area. So her friends to this [day]—she’s thirty-four—are all still the
same people from high school basically, which is kind of nice.
TAMILIO: Right. That is nice. That’s great. Earlier, just to clarify this, I know you had
mentioned Mission Hill kids. They would all go—they didn’t have a high school, right?
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WALSH: No. They had no public high school.
TAMILIO: So they would all go to your high school?
WALSH: Yes. So they were kind of paired with Brighton.
TAMILIO: Okay, so demographically, where is Mission Hill, just to clarify to people who
don’t know?
WALSH: In Roxbury.
TAMILIO: Mission Hill’s in Roxbury. Ok, great. Alright. Anything else that you would like
to add to this interview or—
WALSH: I don’t think so. It’s funny the things that have popped up in my head since I started
talking about this. (pauses to think) I don’t think so. I just wish I knew what would have been a
better way to do it.
TAMILIO: Right, you wish you had a solution.
WALSH: Because I know cities change anyway, but it didn’t help Boston at all to lose all those
people. And those teachers—I’m sure they lost lots of good teachers, too. Because then they
had them where you had to live in the city, so if you didn’t want to live in the city you went
somewhere—I don’t know, it just did a lot of stuff, I’m sure. But I think I was lucky because I
was at the very beginning of it. Maybe I’m wrong, but I felt like the schools itself that I went to
weren’t, at least educationally, were probably pretty much the same as they had—and I think
that’s good because they seemed like good schools, in terms of everyone going on to college or
getting a job.
But I don’t know enough about them now to know how successful they are or not. But I do think
there’s enough—if a school turns mostly all minority, then I know that there’s this hidden—not
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hidden, but often things happen where they don’t get as much money. It’s not always blatant but
I’m sure that happens sometimes. I worry about things like that, so if I lived in Boston now I
don’t know if—I doubt I’d send my kids to—I think I would to elementary school, but I’d be
really worried about high schools, and that’s what—I know that’s what it’s like now because
everyone whose kids don’t get into Latin3 moves. It’s a shame though, because I think they
could have done better.
TAMILIO: Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us.
WALSH: Oh, thank you. I think it’s so cool that someone’s looking into this—whatever comes
out of it. So this is the Moakley Institute, is that what it is?
TAMILIO: Yes.
WALSH: And it’s part of Suffolk obviously, right? Because we’re here.
TAMILIO: Yes. It’s part of the library, right.
WALSH: Well, that’s cool.
TAMILIO: Yes, and thank you so much. I’m sure everyone will be learning so much from
your experience.
END OF INTERVIEW
3
“Latin” refers to Boston Latin School, a public exam school and the oldest public school in the United States.
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�
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers, 1926-2001
Subject
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Boston (Mass.)<br />Legislators--United States <br />Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001<br /> South Boston (Boston, Mass.)<br />Legislators. Massachusetts<br />Politicians--Massachusetts
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The paper of Congressman John Joseph Moakley are housed at the Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.<br /><br />The sample of items from the Moakley papers exhibited on this site are used courtesy of the Moakley Archive and Institute. The full collection documents Moakley’s early life, his World War II service, his terms in the Massachusetts House of Representatives and Senate, and his service in Congress. The majority of the collection covers Moakley’s congressional career from 1973 until 2001. A <a title="Moakley papers" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/MoakleyArchive/ms100.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> the the collection is available online. <br /><br />The collection is open for research. Access to materials may be restricted based on their condition. Please consult the <a title="Moakley Archive" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/moakley" target="_blank">Moakley Archive and Institute</a>, Suffolk University for more information.
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Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001.
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers (MS 100), 1926-2001. View the <a title="John Joseph Moakley Papers" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/MoakleyArchive/ms100.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> at the Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.
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Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.
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1926-2001
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Items highlighted from the Moakley papers in this online collection are made available for research and educational purposes by the Moakley Archive & Institute. <br /><br />Copyright is retained by the creators of items in the Moakley papers, or their descendants, as stipulated by United States copyright law. This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the Moakley Archive & Institute. Prior permission is required for any commercial use.
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<div>
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<p>Moakley Papers: Moakley Oral History Project<br />Enemies of War Collection (MS 104)<br /> Jamaica Plain Committee on Central America Collection (MS 103)</p>
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Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University.
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300.7 cubic feet (521 boxes)
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English
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MS 100
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Boston, Mass.
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Interviewer
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Tamilio, Stephanie
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Walsh, Ruth
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Suffolk University Law School, Boston, Mass.
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See PDF transcript
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48:08
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Introduction p. 3 (00:00)
Ms. Walsh’s experiences being bused and how it affected
her family and neighborhood p. 3 (00:34)
Why busing didn’t work p. 12 (10:40)
Busing in Cambridge and her children’s experiences p. 14 (13:47)
The effects of busing on Boston p. 16 (15:33)
More about Cambridge and her children’s experiences,
specifically those of her adopted biracial daughter p. 18 (19:40)
The benefits of exposure to diversity p. 23 (28:30)
Neighborhood dynamics p. 23 (29:48)
Educational experiences p. 27 (35:47)
Final thoughts p. 33 (46:08)
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Transcript of Oral History Interview with Rush Walsh
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Boston (Mass.)
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Description
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In this interview, Ruth Walsh, who grew up in the Brighton neighborhood of Boston in the 1960s and '70s, reflects on the impact of Judge W. Arthur Garrity's 1974 decision in the case of Morgan v. Hennigan, which required some students to be bused between Boston neighborhoods with the goal of creating racial balance in the public schools. She discusses her education in the Boston Public Schools; the effects of Garrity's decision on her family and neighborhood; the experiences of her own children in the Cambridge Public Schools; and her feelings about the decision and the importance of diversity.
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
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Moakley Oral History Project
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
Date
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March 10, 2005
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Kintz, Laura
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Copyright Suffolk University. This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute. Prior permission is required for any commercial use.
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Moakley Oral History Project: http://moakleyarchive.omeka.net/collections/show/1
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English
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Oral history interview transcript
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OH-047
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/15912/archive/files/c5e063c328ccda9ab46369c7d3082a86.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=OfGUYwEvJoL8evX3GM%7EEfm7jiafdG1-AUq7FwuNjwZGBI9wmtTUt%7E5eZ5120Z88q74f7iuCwoZyLli4BEZUhM0KK-uqsK9zYk0nDPCwJvrKusgSuMfJJC31dMtTq-bLsrX2swRXxtKdXOKIc7H7ZXXPPNU1ICJn1hepcmkqK7CxMLuq4ndEM0DLUtGMIq7r4UEo3fYrs%7EaTcvubfuogbSPYxsPHYfAEnks8WjGNc0TnkahauN3FGd1ELVtV1wKj-lf5z8E3JYLP80aiB6IkjCESIGgljhzhtbeB%7ELGa2t%7EH07LGrmPDrO%7ENsOzXXZni70bpfocLVUjQMg8VctASCMQ__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
f629b7b6c9ab27b76dd44f33ae5ea726
PDF Text
Text
Oral History Interview of Mary Ann Hardenbergh (OH-058)
Moakley Archive and Institute
www.suffolk.edu/moakley
archives@suffolk.edu
Oral History Interview of Mary Ann Hardenbergh
Interview Date: February 16, 2006
Interviewed by: Robert Metz, Suffolk University student in History 364: Oral History
Citation: Hardenbergh, Mary Ann. Interviewed by Robert Metz. John Joseph Moakley Oral
History Project OH-058. 16 February 2006. Transcript and audio available. John Joseph
Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, MA.
Copyright Information: Copyright ©2006, Suffolk University.
Interview Summary
Mary Ann Hardenbergh, who served as a member and as chair of the Massachusetts State Board
of Education, reflects on her experiences during the time surrounding the 1974 Garrity decision,
which required some students to be bused between Boston neighborhoods with the intention of
creating racial balance in the public schools. She discusses her involvement with the decision
and the concept of forced busing; her experiences living in Boston’s Hyde Park neighborhood;
her children’s educational experiences; the issue of race in Boston; and possible alternatives to
the plan that was implemented as a result of the Garrity decision. She concludes by discussing
the current state of education in Massachusetts.
Subject Headings
Boston Public Schools
Boston (Mass.)
Busing for school integration
Education -- Massachusetts
Hardenbergh, Mary Ann
Massachusetts. Board of Education.
Morgan v. Hennigan (379 F. Supp. 410)
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
1
�Oral History Interview of Mary Ann Hardenbergh (OH-058)
Moakley Archive and Institute
www.suffolk.edu/moakley
archives@suffolk.edu
Table of Contents
Background and involvement with the Massachusetts
State Board of Education
p. 3 (00:06)
Experiences with the Hyde Park community and public schools ,
and her children’s experiences
p. 5 (06:20)
Reflections on the Boston Public Schools and racism in Boston
p. 15 (34:58)
Possible alternatives to the Garrity decision
p. 17 (40:05)
Current state of education in Massachusetts
p. 19 (43:38)
Interview transcript begins on next page
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
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�OH-058 Transcript
Interview Transcript
ROBERT METZ: My name is Robert Metz. We’re at the Moakley Archives. It’s February 16,
2006, and it’s approximately 4:20pm. Could you please say your full name?
MARY ANN HARDENBERGH: Yes, Mary Ann Hardenbergh.
METZ: And Mary Ann, where do you currently live and how long have you lived there?
HARDENBERGH: In Back Bay in Boston. 180 Commonwealth Avenue. We have lived there
since 1985, bought the condo in ‘75, started off in 1969 in Hyde Park.
METZ: Okay, and could you just describe generally your connection to the school systems?
HARDENBERGH: Yeah, I was active with the Boston League of Women Voters, and the
president of the league was in a graduate program at Harvard University, and when Joe Cronin
became secretary of education—the secretary of education in those days, this is late sixties, early
seventies, recommended members for the state board of education to be appointed by the
governor. And because they were looking for a Boston parent and because Gertrude 1 knew I
was active in the schools, [and had] five kids in the Boston public schools, she recommended me
and I went through a whole interview process, and then a few glitches, and I was appointed to the
board in February of 1972.
METZ: And prior to becoming a member of the state board, what did you do?
HARDENBERGH: I was a volunteer in the Boston Public Schools.
METZ: So you’ve definitely been involved in education for a while.
HARDENBERGH: This is my thirty-seventh year.
1
Gertrude Perlman was the president of the Boston League of Women Voters.
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�OH-058 Transcript
METZ: Excellent, excellent. So you described how you became a member. When you first
heard about the Garrity decision, what were your thoughts? What were your feelings?
HARDENBERGH: Of course we knew all about it. We brought the first case against Boston,
which they did not adhere to. We would not have recommended, did not recommend as dramatic
a proposal as Judge Garrity came up with, but we thought the only recourse we had at that point
was to support his decision. Thought it would be problematic, thought that the Boston School
Committee was a total disaster and that they were lying to people, to parents, saying, It’ll never
happen, it’ll never happen, you’ll never have to integrate these schools. So a lot of the reaction, I
think, against Garrity’s decision was because people had been lied to.
METZ: And as far as your official role on the board of education—
HARDENBERGH: I was a member; I was chair in the middle seventies.
METZ: Chair in the middle seventies. And the interaction between the public and the board,
what was that like? Was there a lot of pressure and things like that from the community?
HARDENBERGH: Yes, well I’ll describe. The word got out that we were in fact going to
receive a court order in 1974 that would force schools to integrate. And there was an
informational meeting down at Hyde Park Municipal Center, and I went. And it had been
announced that day—this is after three or four months of negotiations—that a new woman had
just been appointed to the state board of education. She did not represent Boston parents because
she was supportive of integration. We had a black foster daughter living with us at the time. And
there was a huge, ugly out roar, and people were yelling, “She’d never dare show up, she’d never
dare show up to this meeting.” And I raised my hand, I went up front, went up on the podium,
and people spat at me, and went on and on and on. And I said, “The problem is, you have been
lied to, because this was inevitable. The constitution requires it, and we could have done it in a
much better way in 1972 with the state board plan, which would not have been nearly as
dramatic as this plan.” So I left this meeting. Someone had offered to drive me home because I
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
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�OH-058 Transcript
walked down and we were followed by cars honking and everything, and we had police
protection for about six months.
METZ: Wow. Was your personal opinion pretty well-defined before any interaction with the
community? Did the community response to the decision influence your personal opinion?
HARDENBERGH: It influenced, if only to say how tragic it was that people there were such
racists. As I mentioned, we had a black foster daughter, five kids plus Aida. And people would
say to me, “Well, we don’t want any blacks coming into our schools or living in our
neighborhoods, but she’s okay.”
METZ: Being on the board of education and also being part of the community, were there any
conflicts between professional obligations and personal beliefs?
HARDENBERGH: Well, I was not a professional in the sense that members from the state
board of ed., from the original Willis-Harrington Act in 1965, 2 could not be professional
educators. Quite a few business people, some other people that were community activists. I think
I was the only one who actually had children in public schools. My professional life at the time
was as a full-time citizen volunteer. I was able to be at home with my kids.
METZ: And a little more in terms of conversations you might have had with neighbors and
community members?
HARDENBERGH: A couple of things happened which solidified, in a sense, my feeling about
the necessity of the court order. Soon after we moved there [to Hyde Park] in 1969, I realized
there was no library in our elementary school, and Boston Partners in Education, which was
called School Volunteers in Boston, for which I had volunteered, was in a big campaign to put
libraries in elementary schools. So I got involved with that and made some good friends because
everybody agreed that we needed a library, I mean, duh. And I was just shocked. I can tell you,
2
The legislation known as the Willis-Harrington Act restructured the Massachusetts Department of Education and
created the Board of Education and the Board of Higher Education. (See the League of Women Voters of
Massachusetts website at http://www.lwvma.org/education.shtml)
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�OH-058 Transcript
the textbooks and style of teaching was [from the] fifties. I mean some of the textbooks that my
kids got were unbelievable, their history and everything; they were so far behind.
There was a very strong Roman Catholic influence in Boston, stronger then than it is now.
People would pull their kids out of parochial schools and put them in public schools and take
them out of public schools and put them in parochial schools. And many of the teachers
themselves had gone to parochial schools, so I would say that the attitude about teaching was
definitely a parochial school model.
A couple of things happened: there was a program in Boston called Exodus; it was begun by
black parents in Roxbury that got the school committee to agree voluntarily that if there were
empty seats in the urban outlying areas, where the better schools were, newer schools, better
teachers, more motivated staff, the whole deal—if there were empty seats in those schools, they
could bring their kids—it wasn’t going to be paid for by the city—to these schools. My husband
and I became active in the parent teacher association, called Home and School Association, and
we went to a meeting and the principal of the school, who was about as progressive as any
educator I’ve ever known, announced with great pride that she had hidden all the extra seats in
the basement. And I raised my hand and I said, “I don’t think that’s right,” she said, “We do
what we want to here in this neighborhood.” So you see there was just this constant putting your
head in the sand and avoiding anything that was coming.
After the supreme court decision—the federal court decision came down—our older kids were in
high schools at the time and so they weren’t basically affected by the court order. But our
daughter, who was going into third grade, was forced-bused into Mattapan to an all-black middle
school, must’ve been elementary school. Maybe she was higher; she was going into middle
school, and this was an all-black middle school. And I volunteered in the library and I rode on
the first bus where the windows were shattered by the black kids; that’s after the white kids had
shattered the black buses. But I rode with my daughter every day for about a month and
volunteered in the library there. And parents would come up to me as I would be walking down
the street to meet the bus at the corner, and say, Do you think it’s going to be safe? I mean, they
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�OH-058 Transcript
would whisper behind the hedges, Is it going to be safe? I can’t afford to send my child to
parochial school or private school, so will it be okay? And I said, “Yes, it will be okay.”
Within a month or so I realized that none of the teachers were giving homework, and there are
mixed academic or educational theories on homework. I happen to believe—I did adult literacy
for quite a while—that repetition is the strongest form of intention, so repetition and doing
written homework, I think, is valuable. I went to one of the teachers and said, “Deedee hasn’t
brought home any homework. I knew there would be a transition time, so I waited for a month or
so.” She said, “Oh we don’t send home homework.” I said, “Well that’s very interesting, why
don’t you do that?” “Well, they,” meaning the black kids, “never would do it, so we just gave
up.” So there was a perfect personification of the attitude of the white teachers towards the black
kids: they can’t succeed; their parents don’t care. And in the meetings that we went to out in the
neighborhoods about this, in the black neighborhoods, we had parents stand up and scream and
yell and say, “I’d bus my kid to hell to get a good education.” So you see the public reception
among the whites and blacks was really frightening I think.
METZ: In terms of—and I definitely want to get back to the experiences and the children and
the schools, but as far as the board goes, if you could describe the nature of the interaction of the
board members regarding this—was everybody on the same page or—?
HARDENBERGH: Yes, everybody was on the same page. And we became absolutely
convinced that that was the only solution since the Boston School Committee thwarted every
other plan we’d ever done. And we had some people on the department of ed. who had actually
worked with the judge on trying to modify some of the plans, the biggest one being really East
Boston, having to bus their kids in through the tunnel. You know, that was, “We’re going to
blow up the tunnel,” said by the racists. Or South Boston where most of the kids were low
income anyway, being mixed up—and their schools were not wonderful—with black kids who
were low income in worse schools. So the mix, we knew, was going to be difficult.
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
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�OH-058 Transcript
METZ: Yeah, in terms of—you described a little bit that the community reaction in Hyde Park
to the decision. Is there anything to elaborate on in terms of neighbors and conversations and
things like that?
HARDENBERGH: Just that no one would speak to me publicly so they could be seen, but I
would get phone calls asking how school was going and what it was like and all of that. But
everything was very—the predominant view in the community was that black kids were inferior.
Yes, we know their schools are inferior, but it’s their fault.
METZ: Did you feel, in any sense, ostracized in the community for your role? Were there any
acts of, not necessarily violence, but—
HARDENBERGH: Oh yeah, well, there were acts of violence; I mean, that’s why we had the
police protection. We had to take our phone off at night because of death threats, and we had
rocks thrown at the house. There was an organization called ROAR, Restore Our Alienated
Rights, coming out of South Boston. And they would begin these Sunday cavalcades; you know,
lines of cars hanging “Nigger go home,” and all of that. They’d leave from Dedham and drive—
Hyde Park is right on the edge next to Dedham—would drive up our street and would just stop in
front of the house and yell threats and scream and yell and at night people would chalk things on
our driveway.
METZ: Did any of that pressure ever force you to reconsider things? I mean, it seems like you
must’ve been very brave to take the position you did on the issue.
HARDENBERGH: Well, I’d really become involved on the whole issue of civil rights by then,
and felt very strongly about it. I went through a course sponsored by the Episcopal Church on
white racism. Jim Reeve, 3 who died in Selma, was a friend, a close personal friend, and our
minister of our Unitarian church down in Braintree was very much of an activist, part of the
3
Jim Reeve was a Boston resident who was beaten to death during a civil rights march from Selma to Montgomery,
Alabama, in 1965. (See the Shiller Institute website at http://www.schillerinstitute.org/conficlc/2007/landbridge_conf_amelia.html)
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
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�OH-058 Transcript
Metco program, 4 where they had families who welcomed black kids into the neighborhood and
all of that. So my persuasion came that the way that blacks have been treated has been absolutely
wrong, illegal, and if somebody doesn’t begin stand up and begin to address the question—yes, I
was strong, I was courageous; my kids didn’t like it. They were upset—some of them are still
upset, although they all went to the exam schools and all did well; went on to college and you
know, but there is that resentment that their mother was the one being sort of pointed out as
somebody who was ruining education in Boston, helping white flight; that was the big issue.
METZ: So as far as your children, you mentioned you had a number of them in the school
systems; how old were they at the time?
HARDENBERGH: Our oldest son—well there was a nine year difference between our oldest
and our youngest. And I think Doug, the first year of deseg[regation] went into Boston Tech, 5
the next three went into Boston Latin, 6 and the youngest son went to one of the experimental
schools, magnet schools 7 we called them, that Judge Garrity set up, the Trotter School, and so we
took responsibility for getting him to school. So he went in to a truly integrated school that was a
fabulous education. Everybody was mixed right from the beginning. That was really good.
METZ: Whereabouts is the Trotter School?
HARDENBERGH: In Roxbury, yeah, and my husband—because I was on the state board, I
couldn’t really be that active locally. I mean, I was volunteering all the time in the libraries and
things like that, and I volunteered at a number of the kids’ schools. But my husband was very
active as a parent at the Trotter, was the co-chair of the Parent Council.
4
The Metco Program is a grant program funded by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. It is a voluntary program
intended to expand educational opportunities and reduce racial imbalance, by permitting students in certain cities to
attend public schools in other communities that have agreed to participate. (Taken from the Massachusetts
Department of Education website, http://www.doe.mass.edu/metco/ )
5
Boston Technical High School was in existence from 1944 until 1989, when it merged with Mario Umana
Technical High School and became the John D. O’Bryant School of Math and Science. (See the O’Bryant School
website at http://obryant.us/servlet/pub?REQTYPE=pubhistory.)
6
Boston Latin School is a public exam school and the oldest public school in the United States.
7
Magnet schools are schools offering special courses not available in the regular school curriculum and designed,
often as an aid to school desegregation, to attract students on a voluntary basis from all parts of a school district
without reference to the usual attendance zone rules. (Definition from the Library of Congress.)
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�OH-058 Transcript
METZ: Excellent. And the first day of school, September 1974—
HARDENBERGH: Five, I think it was. The court order came down in I thought ‘74, and it
wasn’t until ‘75 school year. 8
METZ: That might be the case.
HARDENBERGH: You’ll need to check that; maybe my memory isn’t as accurate.
METZ: I will look into that. Well, the first day of school after the decision was handed down
and this is all coming about, what was it like for your kids—
HARDENBERGH: Well, the older kids weren’t affected because they were already in middle
or junior high schools, which were then changed to middle schools, but they stayed in the same
schools and went on to the, as I said, exam schools. Our daughter was affected by going into the
Thompson School in Mattapan, an all-black school. So the first day, we were the only white—
no, Deedee had a couple of friends whose parents were willing, as long as I was riding along, to
send their kids. And I got some of them actively involved in the schools, who had been very
reluctant to begin with because they couldn’t see the value of mixing kids up. And so the first
day of school, on the way home, we heard about the white kids of South Boston stoning the
black buses. The second day of school, I was riding the bus, sitting next to the window, came
down the street from the Thompson, made a left hand turn, and there were a bunch of kids with
stones. And the window right here was broken, so I was the person who yelled, “Down on the
floor, under the seats!”
METZ: Must’ve been a very, just shocking moment.
HARDENBERGH: Oh yeah, but it was inevitable. And then we had a police escort from that
time on.
8
The busing plan was implemented on September 13, 1975, the first day of school.
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�OH-058 Transcript
METZ: Were there any further incidents after that, even with a police escort?
HARDENBERGH: No, and some of the parents after a couple of months did send their kids to
school. So the number of white kids—our daughter went through a situation where a bunch of
black kids ganged up on her, called her “whitey” and threatening her, and she stood up to them
and that was the end of it.
METZ: Wow, good for her. And that was really one of the only—were there any other
incidents?
HARDENBERGH: Oh, well other things that were happening in the city are—[my] third son,
who’s a tennis pro, was taking tennis lessons at Jim Smith’s—who’s the black—Arthur Ashe
Center in Roxbury. And Jim knowing that white kids—this was on Blue Hill Avenue in
Mattapan area—knowing that black kids were throwing rocks at white kids, he actually drove
Craig after school, after his practice into Mattapan, where I would pick him up.
METZ: And when you found out that your daughter, Deedee, was going to the—you know,
basically having her shipped to the school in Mattapan, what did you know about the community
then, as far as Mattapan and the reputation of it and the school systems?
HARDENBERGH: Just that I knew that the black schools were not good schools, so it was all
part of the risk we took, with the hope of improving the schools, all the schools. I was equally
hoping that this would force Hyde Park schools to improve, because I mentioned, they were very
regressive.
METZ: Were there other examples of, or experiences that maybe other family members or
neighbors had in the school systems regarding this conflict or—?
HARDENBERGH: Well I know another member of the state board, Evelyn Morash who did
not have kids in school but lived in East Boston, her house was also stoned. The other members
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
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�OH-058 Transcript
of the state board were very sympathetic and supportive, so that sort of reinforced us, and Evelyn
and I talked a lot obviously.
METZ: And you and Evelyn were the only two—
HARDENBERGH: Bostonians, yeah
METZ: Right, so that must’ve created an interesting dynamic.
HARDENBERGH: Well, they didn’t even have anyone on there until they had me, I mean no
one from Boston, when they knew that school deseg. was coming down the Pike—[that] was just
not smart.
METZ: And so after that initial—that first day when the bus was stoned, and the police escort
was present afterwards, there were no further examples?
HARDENBERGH: Well there were stonings but the windows weren’t broken and the police
were riding on either side of the bus.
METZ: How far was the trip?
HARDENBERGH: Oh, my husband says I exaggerate time, or don’t—I would say it was
twenty minutes to a half hour bus ride, by the time we picked up other kids and sort of went
through the side streets and everything.
METZ: And what age were the children on the bus?
HARDENBERGH: This was sixth, seventh, and eighth grades. You know, the whole court case
was based on the fact that the white schools were junior high schools, seven, eight and nine—no,
the other way around; the white kids had middle school, six, seven, and eight, which meant they
could go from there into ninth grade into Latin schools. And the black kids had seven, eight, and
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nine, which made it much harder for them to transfer after junior high school. That was one of
the original cases—reasons for the court order.
METZ: So throughout the school year, with your children’s experiences, it seems as if it did
improve, to an extent. Is that accurate?
HARDENBERGH: I think so. I mean, our youngest son had very good black friends because
right from kindergarten or first grade on, kindergarten on, he really was not in a negative
environment. So I mean we would drive him down to Dorchester and his friends would come
and stay with us, white and black usually mixed together. The older kids hated the whole scene
and I guess I mentioned that their mother was sort of the focus of all this negative stuff. People
are still living those days and it’s scary to me.
I’ve been very much involved in a program called Citywide Dialogues, began two years ago,
where we were bringing people, blacks and whites, together in neighborhood groups to do a
four-session curriculum on racism. And I did the very first one in Back Bay, it was very hard to
get black participants, but they did one in Charlestown and when we facilitators met on a regular
basis, they said, We can’t believe it, they’re still reliving ‘74, ‘75.
METZ: And have the feelings and opinions of your children, have they changed over the years,
maybe even modified when they look back on things?
HARDENBERGH: I think so. Our second son is head of the Community Action Program in the
state of Alaska, where they do a lot of outreach to, not as much blacks, but Native Indians. He
was in the Peace Corps. Our third son’s brother-in-law had a black child and therefore Melissa
has been a part of their family, so I think they are very open and they attend a born-again church
which is black and white. But they’re the only two. Deedee still is upset that we made her go
through it. [Content omitted]
METZ: Right. You mentioned that you had an adopted—
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HARDENBERGH: Foster daughter.
METZ: Right, foster daughter. Now as I understand it, one of the things that the Boston schools
did to try to determine the issues of race was to have to basically indicate whether you were
white or black and there were some issues with that. And one of the things I had heard in my
research about this was that some of the families who had mentioned that they had white children
and black children, there was an issue with that. Did you encounter anything like that?
HARDENBERGH: Well, let me tell you what happened. We were living in Hackensack, New
Jersey, before we moved up to Boston in 1969, and Aida had come to live with us during New
York City’s school strike. And she was going into tenth grade, had third grade reading and math,
no other skills. So we did not want to put her back into the New York City schools and so we
agreed—this is when we became foster parents—that we would bring her to Boston. And I
contacted the Hyde Park High School headmaster, wrote him three times, and said, “We’re
bringing our daughter in in six months. She has gained three grade levels [in her reading and
math skills], and she will need help.” She isn’t a special ed. kid, she was just never educated.
I think the kids started high school first, so the others went off on the buses and everything and
knew how to do that and I think I went with many of them. So the second day I guess it was
when the high school kids were starting, maybe three or four days before the elementary school
kids. I went down and made an appointment at Hyde Park High with the headmaster. We were
delayed; they kept us waiting about a half hour, or hour. It was the worst school I’ve ever seen. I
said to Aida, “Sweetie, I just don’t think we’re going to leave you here.” We got into the
headmaster’s—he was not a bad guy, but again, he was living in another world entirely. Got into
his office, and there were my three letters, each one with a please send me back any information
I need to know.
He said, “Well, I guess we never got around to contacting you did we?” I said, “No, you didn’t
and I consider it to be quite rude.” He said, “Well Mrs. Hardenberg, even though she is your
foster daughter, you’ll have to pay tuition for her to go to this public school.” Something like
nine hundred dollars a year, which in that—this is 1970, ‘69, was a lot of money. And I said, “I
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think you have a terrible school.” I had already begun to do a little investigating; found out that
12 percent of their graduating classes went onto any form of higher education or voc training, or
anything. I mean, 12 percent—just a disaster. And again it was a forced bused school.
So I got home, called my husband, and I said, “We just can’t put Aida in that school. I don’t
know what to do.” He was talking out loud about, “Have you thought about this, thought about
that? Maybe we could find another school.” But it was all very geographically determined, and
the man next to him—this was at the New England Telephone Company, good old MA Bell
days—overheard him, because they had the low partitions, and said, “Dan, are you having a
problem?” And Dan explained why, and he said, “Well, my brother happens to be head of the
Boston Archdiocese School System; let’s see what we can do.” Because they had already known
that we brought Aida up, and everybody thought it was wonderful that we were doing that and
tutoring her and all of that.
So we got her in to Jeanne D’Arc Academy, which was a Catholic school in Milton, but it was
right on the end of our street. And he called back and said—I guess he spoke to the brother, the
brother spoke to Mother Superior and he said, “Take Aida over there just to see what can be
worked out.” Well, this Mother Superior was a hot shot, absolutely dynamite; young gun—wore
regular clothes and was just really great. And she said, “You’re doing all you can to redress a
situation that all of us should have been addressing for years, and we will have Aida come in
tuition free. You will have to buy her uniform and her books, but we will do everything possible
to help.”
So she started going to private school. She was going into eleventh grade. And again, several
things happen, as you know. As a teacher—if you’ve done an intensive amount of catch up
learning, you reach a plateau and unfortunately she was still there at sixth grade. And the private
school environment—the kids were wonderful to her. It was not an integrated school. She was
the only black, but they had her over for overnights, we had them over our house for overnights.
She started dating a dear friend of one of the white classmates who worked in a drug store
because this black guy there—she [the white classmate] thought Aida and he would get along,
which they did. She struggled through eleventh grade, and by the time she got to twelfth grade,
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although she wanted to go to nursing school—that’s how we originally connected with her—and
she realized that she was still so far behind and we said, Well, we’ll do whatever we can; we’ll
provide some interim education, we’ll do whatever.”
She got pregnant. This was the standard East Harlem way of escaping your family. We went
through an abortion experience. I mean, it’s much more complicated. She now is very close to
us. But [she] left school; our contract with her was, as long as you are in school, then you may
stay here. So she never did graduate, and had a terrible accident—her husband was in the air
force over in Holland—and [she] was totally paralyzed and had to learn how to crawl and walk
and definitely had brain damage, so in a sense there was no way we could ever catch up. She is
one of the wisest people I know, but she certainly is not academically inclined or gifted.
METZ: And your other daughter that was bused, what grade was she in?
HARDENBERGH: She was going into the new structure which was six, seven, and eight of all
schools. This had been a six, seven, and eight because it was a black school, and so she was
going into sixth grade.
METZ: As far as being able to look back and reflect on things and kind of compare how things
were then and now, in terms of the neighborhood—I know you don’t live in Hyde Park
anymore—
HARDENBERGH: No, we moved out after twenty years.
METZ: But has your opinion on the neighborhood changed at all?
HARDENBERGH: Well, they’re integrated. Black families have moved in. I’m not sure if the
racism—I’m very active in civil rights things. The racism is not as blatant, but it’s still there.
METZ: More of an institutional form of it.
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HARDENBERGH: Exactly.
METZ: What about as far as your opinion on the schools? Do you feel there’s measured
progress in the time span that we’ve seen elapse?
HARDENBERGH: Tom Payzant is a good friend. [He’s the] superintendent. He’s been there
now for eleven years. I think he’s done as good a job as anyone could do. I think until we retire
most of the old teachers, that racism is always going to be there. It’s low expectations for black
kids. I think the schools got worse because all the—a lot of the white families pulled out, which
left a poor, black minority system, with all of the problems that that involves. I think they have
potential for getting better. I think some of them are absolutely fabulous, I volunteer at the
Quincy School, which is a majority Chinese school, in the Chinatown area. And it’s an
absolutely superb school, but it’s such a mixed bag everywhere. Depends on the principal,
depends on community involvement, you know, a lot of things.
METZ: As far as media coverage of the issue, did you have any personal interaction with the
members of the media, national or local or—?
HARDENBERGH: Well of course, I got phone calls all the time and all of that. I think they
tried—I think the Globe really did its best to really keep the lid on. The mayor, Kevin White, did
his best. In fact, he has Alzheimer’s so he doesn’t remember a lot, but I’ve seen him recently at
some political things, and he does remember coming out to Hyde Park, meeting in the kitchens
with groups of us that would put parents together. [Robert J.] DiGrazia, who was the police chief
at the time, really did his damnedest to try to keep things safe. I think the ministers and other
local activists, when they realized it was blowing up, really made an effort to keep things under
control.
METZ: In terms of the media coverage, both local and national, do you think it was a fair
representation of the issue?
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HARDENBERGH: Well all they could do was to report incidents, as I say the Globe really
tried to keep the lid on by not reporting a lot of what would have been inflammatory incidents. I
don’t know, it’s hard for me to gauge. I was so in the middle of it that it was almost irrelevant
what the media was saying. Except they did tend to focus on the hot spots, that would be my one
criticism, not on the places where it was going better.
METZ: Right. As far as the impression on how the city of Boston was portrayed, both in the
media but also in people’s minds and perceptions, was it a fair portrayal?
HARDENBERGH: It was a terribly racist city, and as I say, much more blatant then, but a lot
of that is still there.
METZ: Do you think things have changed?
HARDENBERGH: I think things have absolutely changed. I think younger people coming in
are much more open. I think the mayor has made a strong commitment to an integrated city. He’s
got a majority minority city now, so he doesn’t have much choice. So I think that the leadership
there is very much anti-racist, but the pockets are still out there where this is still happening. You
see it in housing, you see it in lots of other places.
METZ: Are there any things that you wish you had done differently? Any actions you might
have taken?
HARDENBERGH: I wish that the state board plan of 1972 went through because it was a more
moderate plan. It would have gradually integrated the schools, not all at one time. Would’ve
started at elementary school then gradually moved through the system, and not force kids to go
as far as they eventually had to go. The irony is that in the sixties, Harvard School of Education
proposed a pie-shaped districting for the city of Boston that would’ve solved all the problems
because right from the beginning, you would’ve had that natural mix geographically of black and
white and poor and middle class and, you know, it was just fought. Any rational decision or
effort was fought all the way.
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METZ: What do you think was the motive for that?
HARDENBERGH: Political. The Louise Day-Hicks 9 and the John Kerrigans. 10 John Kerrigan
used to scream at me as I’d be walking down Tremont Street, “Oh, there’s that lady that’s as
welcome in Boston as an Arab at an Israeli barbecue.” Stuff like that, just really awful. And he
moved to Quincy. I mean, ironically, many of the school committee members didn’t have their
kids in schools, or in public schools. And it was a stepping stone to city council and then the
whole political process.
METZ: I see. Now, in terms of the abandonment of the state board’s proposal of redistricting,
how did it go from that to what Judge Garrity’s final decision was?
HARDENBERGH: Because the school committee refused to implement the proposal by the
state board—what we did was—this is very dramatic because it was the only way that we knew
how to impact—we told Boston that we would withdraw all state education funds, federal and
state education funds. Which, you know, wasn’t the majority of funds in Boston, like all the
school systems in Massachusetts are predominantly 70 percent local and 30 percent and 4 to 5
percent fed. money. We said we’re not going to release the state money unless you integrate, and
that scared them. So they then began a court suit against the state board, saying you have no right
to do that. The attorney general came to our aid. That’s required in Massachusetts; the attorney
general has to support the state agencies. And when they continued to refuse, the attorney
general then convinced the NAACP to bring the federal suit.
METZ: I see. Is there anything further in terms of comments on your role professionally that
you want to share?
9
Louise Day Hicks (1916-2003), a Democrat, served on the Boston School Committee from 1962 to 1967 (serving
as chairman from 1963 to 1965), ran unsuccessfully for the mayoralty of Boston in 1967 and in 1971, and served on
the Boston City Council before being elected to the United States House of Representatives in 1970, representing
Massachusetts Ninth Congressional District. She was an outspoken critic of busing.
10
John J. Kerrigan (1932-1996) was a member of the Boston School Committee from 1968 to 1976. He gained
notoriety as one of the city’s most outspoken critics of busing.
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HARDENBERGH: I will never regret that it happened. People can’t believe that and they say,
Oh, but we had white flight and schools went nowhere. And I say, “The schools were going
nowhere anyway.” Tragically in my own building in Back Bay, the young couples move in, they
have children and they’re afraid to keep their kids here. Now we don’t have an elementary
school in Back Bay, Beacon Hill area, so part of that is just that there isn’t a local choice per se.
And they move out, they move to the ‘burbs, Brookline, Newton, you name it. And I think that’s
very sad. I think that we lose that whole stabilizing factor. Some of it is misperception of the
schools because the public view—now this isn’t just Boston—the public view is that public
education has failed.
I was at a huge meeting today, we’re doing a legislative briefing on a whole new report we put
out called, “Education of the Whole Child,” which is basically an anti-MCAS 11 effort talking
about multiple measurement systems which is what the law specifies, the school reform law. And
what we’re battling is the anti-public school perception by the public and by the legislature and
even by the governor, that privatization is the only way to go. What the businesses say, our entry
level employees are not educated therefore we need to do charter schools or take over schools.
This is the new proposal by Mass. Inside, which is one of those education business groups that’s
doing research and making proposals. The Pioneer Institute, which has been at the basis of their
whole privatization is talking about vouchers, supporting vouchers. Which I’m totally and
absolutely against; I support public schools. I think even charter schools are a problem because
they draw away resources from the schools. I mean financially, it’s a disaster because they get a
state average that often is higher than what they pay per student, so it’s off the top of their school
budgets. Now you’re in a school system that has done very well under MCAS, they were number
one in the state with the first MCAS results. I don’t think that’s true now, Medway is—
METZ: Yeah, I think they’re like seventh now.
HARDENBERGH: Yeah, but I remember that specifically. But what we’re focusing on with
this “Education of the Whole Child” is that the achievement gap has widened because if you’re
11
MCAS refers to the Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System, which includes a standardized test that all
public school students must pass in order to graduate high school.
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teaching to a test, and a very narrow test, you’re losing the skills that kids that are not
academically brought up, in a sense, have. And you’re also doing it in a punitive way when
you’re making it a graduation requirement, even though it’s three years and all that kind of stuff.
Plus we know the curriculum has been narrowed, not just in Boston. We’ve lost phys. ed., we’ve
lost practically all of things that might be appealing to motivate kids to stay in school, but you’re
hearing it from the ‘burbs as well. The teachers are teaching to the test and are losing a lot of
what encourages kids to stay in school and to try to do better. So the dropout rate is phenomenal,
much more than what department of ed.—I mean we’ve got researchers that are tracking it
because kids are now dropping out after eighth grade because they’re anticipating this whole new
high school environment, so we’re losing kids much earlier and nobody’s acknowledging that.
METZ: And as far as personal experiences during this time, is there anything you want to just
add or elaborate on?
HARDENBERGH: Well I became more committed than ever and I helped to create the Greater
Boston Civil Rights Coalition in ‘79. I chair two statewide organizations, Citizens for Public
Schools, which fought the voucher, the private aid to public schools plan in ‘82 and ‘86 and won.
And I chair another coalition called the Mass. Coalition for Equitable Education, that’s fighting
the resegregation of schools. So my experience led me to say that I believe that education is a
way out—way up, not way out—way up for kids. And if we don’t ensure that kids of all
nationalities and income levels and all of that, have access to a good school then we’re not doing
the job we should be doing. So I’m very active.
METZ: Well, I definitely want to thank you very much for this experience and sharing.
HARDENBERGH: Well, you heard the real story from someone who lived it. I think one of the
things that bothered me a lot about Common Ground—have you heard about that book that was
written? 12
METZ: Yes, I have.
12
Common Ground by Anthony Lukas was published in 1985 by Knopf.
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HARDENBERGH: Tony Lukas; is that who wrote it? We know the white couple that was from
the South End. They’ve now moved away, but we knew them. And then there was another white
family from Charlestown and another white family from South Boston and we felt that the book
focused on the negatives not the positives, and tragically, the couple that were touted in the
South End, the Divers, Joan and Colin Diver, took their kids out of school. And my point was,
why didn’t you find somebody who kept their kids in the school because you’re giving a very
lopsided view of many of us who struggled and had to compensate. I’m not an educator, but I’ve
done enough in education, obviously, that the commissioner at the time when I was on the state
board, Greg Anrig, who has since died, but went to head up ETS [Educational Testing Services]
in Princeton [New Jersey], said, “Mary Ann, you’ve earned your doctorate many times over.”
That state board was a very exciting place to be. We created Chapter 766, which was the first
special ed. law in the country, 108 pages of regulations, and I travel around the state to all the
public hearings. We created the bilingual education program, which is tragic that we lost that,
because the perception that you don’t need to be bilingual is just so bad in this global economy.
The Hardenberg Amendment put forward by the state board was Chapter 622, which allowed
women access to the resources that were being given to boys, for sports for example, and
extracurricular activities, that encourage more culturally relevant—like soccer; who ever heard
about soccer in 1975?
So there were some very exciting things that we did during that time, much of which we have
lost because the present state board is a disaster. It is made up of people who only know higher
education, who are for privatization, are not public school proponents, and they are gradually
destroying all of the inclusive things that we were doing in the seventies and eighties. So I mean
it’s just so discouraging. We’re going to get back—we’ll have to do another special ed. law,
we’ll have to do another bilingual ed. law, we’ll have to do another inclusive kind of law, we’ll
have to do another segregation effort of some kind because the stats are really scary around the
state on the resegregating of the schools.
METZ: Can you elaborate a little on that?
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HARDENBERGH: Yeah, I mean, you should talk to someone at the Civil Rights Project, Gary
Orfield. It’s at Harvard. 13 They have done the most outstanding research on issues, black, white
issues around the country, housing, job opportunities, levels of education, at the higher level as
well as graduate school. And they have begun to put together stats on the resegregation of the
schools, not just in Massachusetts, but all around the country because of the withdrawal of the
courts and that’s very sad to see. I know that in Boston, the Latin schools, the percentage of kids
of color going in have dropped dramatically, and kids are leaving—kids of color are leaving
because they feel they don’t have a supportive cohort. A lot of it is numbers, masses, and if
you’re the only kid, in a whole class, of color, then it’s not a welcoming kind of environment.
So we know that the Boston schools are resegregating, and that’s when the Garrity court had to
pull out. And then even more recent court decisions with the Wessmann decision 14 about Latin
school admissions where the percentages were taken away. So it’s just very sad to see, so we’re
going to fight that battle all over again. And fortunately we’re now beginning to develop a cadre
of young people who I think are beginning to understand that in a global world and in a society
that needs to be integrated and that needs to educate all children for their own economic benefit,
that we’re going to see research and some people who are saying, We’ve got to do better,
eliminate the achievement gap, talk about educating the whole child. So that’s my passion.
METZ: Well, I definitely want to thank you for sharing it, the whole experience.
HARDENBERGH: Fine, but I do think the Civil Rights Project would be a good one for you all
to think about at least getting that information.
13
In 2006, the Civil Rights Project moved from Harvard University to the University of California at Los Angeles.
(See http://www.civilrightsproject.ucla.edu/ for more information.)
14
In Wessmann v. Boston School Committee, 996 F. Supp. 120 (D. Mass. 1998), Henry Robert Wessmann brought
suit against the Boston School Committee on behalf of his daughter, Sarah Wessmann, who was denied admission to
Boston Latin School, a public exam school, on the basis of her race (white). At that time there was school policy
that allowed preferential acceptance of minorities, even if they scored lower than non-minorities on their entrance
exams, after half of the spots in the incoming freshman class were filled without using race as an acceptance factor.
The district court ruled in favor of the school committee, but on appeal in Wessmann v. Gittens, 160 F. 3d 790 (1st
Cir. 1998), the federal court found that the school’s policy was unconstitutional, and the policy was abandoned.
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END OF INTERVIEW
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�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers, 1926-2001
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Boston (Mass.)<br />Legislators--United States <br />Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001<br /> South Boston (Boston, Mass.)<br />Legislators. Massachusetts<br />Politicians--Massachusetts
Description
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The paper of Congressman John Joseph Moakley are housed at the Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.<br /><br />The sample of items from the Moakley papers exhibited on this site are used courtesy of the Moakley Archive and Institute. The full collection documents Moakley’s early life, his World War II service, his terms in the Massachusetts House of Representatives and Senate, and his service in Congress. The majority of the collection covers Moakley’s congressional career from 1973 until 2001. A <a title="Moakley papers" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/MoakleyArchive/ms100.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> the the collection is available online. <br /><br />The collection is open for research. Access to materials may be restricted based on their condition. Please consult the <a title="Moakley Archive" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/moakley" target="_blank">Moakley Archive and Institute</a>, Suffolk University for more information.
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Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001.
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers (MS 100), 1926-2001. View the <a title="John Joseph Moakley Papers" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/MoakleyArchive/ms100.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> at the Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.
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Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.
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1926-2001
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Items highlighted from the Moakley papers in this online collection are made available for research and educational purposes by the Moakley Archive & Institute. <br /><br />Copyright is retained by the creators of items in the Moakley papers, or their descendants, as stipulated by United States copyright law. This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the Moakley Archive & Institute. Prior permission is required for any commercial use.
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<div>
<div>
<p>Moakley Papers: Moakley Oral History Project<br />Enemies of War Collection (MS 104)<br /> Jamaica Plain Committee on Central America Collection (MS 103)</p>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
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Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University.
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300.7 cubic feet (521 boxes)
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English
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Text
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MS 100
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Boston, Mass.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Metz, Robert
Interviewee
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Hardenbergh, Mary Ann
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Suffolk University Law School, Boston, Mass.
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See PDF transcript
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55:10
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Background and involvement with the Massachusetts
State Board of Education p. 3 (00:06)
Experiences with the Hyde Park community and public schools,
and her children’s experiences p. 5 (06:20)
Reflections on the Boston Public Schools and racism in Boston p. 15 (34:58)
Possible alternatives to the Garrity decision p. 17 (40:05)
Current state of education in Massachusetts p. 19 (43:38)
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Transcript of Oral History Interview with Mary Ann Hardenbergh
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Boston (Mass.)
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Education -- Massachusetts
Massachusetts. Board of Education
Description
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In this interview, Mary Ann Hardenbergh, former member and chair of the Massachusetts State Board of Education, reflects on the impact of Judge W. Arthur Garrity's 1974 decision in the case of Morgan v. Hennigan, which required some students to be bused between Boston neighborhoods with the goal of creating racial balance in the public schools. She discusses her involvement with the decision and the concept of forced busing; her experiences living in Boston’s Hyde Park neighborhood; her children’s educational experiences; the issue of race in Boston; and possible alternatives to the plan that was implemented as a result of the Garrity decision. She concludes by discussing the current state of education in Massachusetts.
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
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Moakley Oral History Project
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
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February 16, 2006
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Kintz, Laura
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Copyright Suffolk University. This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute. Prior permission is required for any commercial use.
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Moakley Oral History Project: http://moakleyarchive.omeka.net/collections/show/1
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English
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Oral history interview transcript
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OH-058
-
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b2f423526dd1feb7a67c27210977d0dc
PDF Text
Text
Oral History Interview of Lewis Finfer (OH-050)
Moakley Archive and Institute
www.suffolk.edu/moakley
archives@suffolk.edu
Oral History Interview of Lewis Finfer
Interview Date: March 21, 2005
Interviewed by: Brynn Crockett, Suffolk University Student from History 364: Oral History
Citation: Finfer, Lewis. Interviewed by Brynn Crockett. John Joseph Moakley Oral History
Project OH-050. 21 March 2005. Transcript and audio available. John Joseph Moakley Archive
and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, MA.
Copyright information: Copyright ©2005, Suffolk University.
Interview Summary
Lewis Finfer, a community organizer with neighborhood and citywide groups in the Boston area,
discusses the impact of the 1974 Garrity decision, which resulted in some students being bused
from one Boston neighborhood to another with the goal of creating racial balance in the Boston
Public Schools. Topics covered include the racial and social climate in Boston at the time;
reactions of the white and black communities to the decision; the condition of the Boston Public
Schools then, now and in the future; and the political aspects and ramifications of the decision.
Subject Headlines
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Finfer, Lewis, 1950Morgan v. Hennigan (379 F. Supp. 410)
Table of Contents
Mr. Finfer’s background
p. 3 (00:13)
His reaction to the Garrity decision
p. 4 (01:08)
Community climate and reactions
p. 4 (02:10)
Personal experiences
p. 6 (06:58)
More on community reactions
p. 8 (12:26)
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
1
�Media portrayal
p. 8 (14:06)
Boston Public Schools today and in the future
p. 9 (17:23)
Historical legacy of the decision
p. 12 (24:50)
Politics of the decision
p. 14 (29:54)
Interview transcript begins on next page
Page 2 of 15
�OH-050 Transcript
This interview took place on March 21, 2005, at Mr. Finfer’s office at
1773 Dorchester Avenue, Dorchester, Mass.
Interview Transcript
BRYNN CROCKETT: I’m Brynn Crockett and I’m interviewing Lewis Finfer, and it’s March
21, 2005. Can you please state your name?
LEWIS FINFER: Lewis Finfer.
CROCKETT: Thank you, and when were you born?
FINFER: September 19, 1950.
CROCKETT: And where were you born?
FINFER: Brooklyn, New York.
CROCKETT: Where did you go to school?
FINFER: College?
CROCKETT: Yeah.
FINFER: I went to Harvard College up here.
CROCKETT: Okay, and did you stay here in the area after college?
FINFER: Mm-hmm.
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
3
�OH-050 Transcript
CROCKETT: Okay, and where were the places you lived?
FINFER: I’ve lived in Dorchester since 19—I lived in Cambridge from ’68 to ’71. I’ve lived in
Dorchester since 1971, except in 1978 to 80, I lived in Somerville when I was working for a
community organization there, but otherwise prior to that and since 1980 I’ve lived in Dorchester
the whole time.
CROCKETT: Do you remember where you were at the time of the 1974 Garrity decision?1
FINFER: I was working in Dorchester for a community organization, Dorchester Community
Action Council, but, I mean, I don’t remember the specific day. I remember obviously reading
in the papers and hearing it on the radio.
CROCKETT: Okay, and how did you react to the decision?
FINFER: I think it was a momentous thing. There had been some articles obviously saying that
this was pending and could go in lots of different directions, but I knew it was going to have a
big change on life because it was going to probably result in a lot of specific changes and
assignment patterns and also a possibility of court ordered busing.
CROCKETT: Okay. How did the Garrity decision affect your community work?
FINFER: Well, that’s a big question. I think the other thing I would say is that prior to the
Garrity decision, there had been, I think about two years before, there was a housing project that
was then called Columbia Point, which is now called Harbor Point, that was mostly occupied by
black tenants and it bordered on what’s called Carson Beach, which is a beach that begins sort of
1
The Garrity decision refers to the June 21, 1974, opinion filed by Judge W. Arthur Garrity in the case of Tallulah
Morgan et al. v. James Hennigan et al. (379 F. Supp. 410). Judge Garrity ruled that the Boston School Committee
had “intentionally brought about and maintained racial segregation” in the Boston Public Schools. When the school
committee did not submit a workable desegregation plan as the opinion had required, the court established a plan
that called for some students to be bused from their own neighborhoods to attend schools in other neighborhoods,
with the goal of creating racial balance in the Boston Public Schools. (See
http://www.lib.umb.edu/archives/garrity2.html for more information)
Page 4 of 15
�OH-050 Transcript
at the beginning of South Boston, and there had been an incident there. It had been sort of
considered South Boston’s turf, but it was a public beach and it was right next to the housing
projects on one side, so there had been an incident where a black family had been harassed when
they were using the beach, and people had decided to do a support demonstration about their
right to use the beach. I went to it at the time, working as a community organizer, and being
sympathetic to the issue, and it turned into a huge fracas. There were a couple hundred people
from South Boston, mostly teenagers and young adults separated by a hundred police and there
were rocks being thrown over the police, so it sort of reminded me of pictures you had seen in
the South about desegregating public facilities.
So I had that memory and then I think what was most—I guess what I learned a lot during this
period is just sort of the intermix of race and class, that some ways the desegregation case was
much about race and about racial patterns and how school districts were set and about conflict
over the court decision. I think what I learned from living here and talking to people and
members of organizations was in a sense, a lot of the working class whites were resentful of a
court decision that only affected Boston residents; it didn’t affect the suburbs. The judge [W.
Arthur Garrity], symbolically, was from Wellesley, a very wealthy suburb, and the Boston
Globe, which editorialized for this, even though their news coverage was very reasonably
balanced, the editor at the time was a suburban resident, and the stereotype was that most of the
Globe officials and editors and so forth were from the suburbs. So in a sense, people felt like
they were being asked to do something that suburban residents weren’t being asked to do.
Part of that was other legal decisions that had been made, especially in a case called Milliken2
which is in Detroit, ordered that remedies to desegregation could only be done within specific
municipalities affected and not on the metropolitan basis, and that was decided I think just after
Garrity’s decision, so I think that affected the remedies he could have offered. Some legal people
feel he could have offered—involved suburbs, which wouldn’t have been more popular, but
would’ve been more fair. There are also certainly perspectives that if they had ordered maybe
2
Milliken v. Bradley (418 U.S. 717) was argued on February 27, 1974, and decided on July 25, 1974. The United
States Supreme Court ruled that school desegregation plans could only involve multiple school districts if there was
evidence of segregation in all of those districts. This meant that suburban school districts were not required to
participate in urban desegregation programs, unless there was blatant segregation in those suburban schools.
Page 5 of 15
�OH-050 Transcript
one grade at a time or a certain number of grades at a time, rather than desegregating the whole
system—the first year they paired South Boston and Roxbury, and the next year they sort of
desegregated the whole system. If they had desegregated a certain number of grades at a time,
again nothing would have been popular with some people, but the biggest physical
confrontations happened in the high schools, so there were all those kinds of things that had an
impact on this.
On the other hand, African Americans had real grievances; they legally showed that they were
discriminated against in terms of patterns of—that they had to walk further and go on more buses
than whites did, and their schools were probably worse. I mean, all the public schools were not
great. So there were all those kinds of things that were going on, that it basically taught me a lot
about—that this was a lot about class and opportunities that people had by social and economic
class as well as about opportunities and rights people had based on race. So that’s some
background, but that’s sort of how I see some of the events that happened.
CROCKETT: Thank you. As a community leader, did you feel that it was necessary to take a
stand on the issue?
FINFER: I was director of a group that was a group that had a significant number of African
Americans and a significant number of whites, so there was division about this issue, and it made
it difficult to make a decision on this issue because it was so difficult, so we didn’t take a
position on it. We worked on a lot of other community improvement issues and probably were
one of the few large-scale integrated organizations in the city at that time, but we only worked on
other issues like crime prevention, and dealing with housing deterioration, and red lining, and
banking investment issues, and discrimination and assessing, and a lot of other community
issues. Probably if we had more wisdom and ability, maybe we could have done about this, but it
was a time where our membership was divided, so it wasn’t so easy to just pose, “We support
this,” or something. But perhaps in hindsight, we could have tried to taken it up more rather than
feeling it go wild, and there wasn’t something we could specifically do other than bring people
together around other issues, and that wasn’t insignificant given the times, but I always think in
retrospect, maybe we could have done more.
Page 6 of 15
�OH-050 Transcript
Another practical impact—for about two years it was very difficult to schedule meetings. There
was a period where people felt it was unsafe on each side to go into certain areas. Dorchester is
an area of 125,000 people, so it’s a big section, so for a time there was only one place—the
Grover Cleveland Middle School in Fields Corner was sort of considered neutral and both whites
and blacks were willing to go to it. But almost every other meeting site, including ones that were
as close as four blocks from that site, were considered unsafe to some degree by whites or
blacks. So it had an impact in that where you scheduled meetings, or sometimes you sort of had
to have a meeting in a particular neighborhood because that’s where the issue was most felt and
so forth, but then you knew you were going to get less—some whites or blacks who were part of
the organization wouldn’t go there because they didn’t feel safe. So that was one of the practical
problems.
There was such a period, I remember, every time there was an incident or crime in the paper,
people would look to see was the person who did the crime white or black, and did they do it to
white or black, and would there be retaliation because of that. There were some instances—
retaliation on both sides, so it was that kind of a time.
CROCKETT: How did the Garrity decision affect you personally?
FINFER: I think it’s mostly in all these ways I said—I think it most challenged me to look hard
at the class issues involved, and as I said, that in some ways there was a lot about race, and it was
remembered as a case about racial discrimination, desegregation, which it very much is. But it
also brings to mind all of these class issues that are very much not spoken about in American
life, but very big and in some ways people can sometimes avoid them if they can afford to move
to the suburbs or afford to send their kids to parochial school, then they can kind of remove
themselves in part from some of these issues, but a lot of people can’t. So that’s what I think was
key, how I remember the decision and what it meant to me.
CROCKETT: Okay. You had mentioned before there was a lot of articles about violence. Did
you yourself witness any violence or ever feel threatened from your community organization?
Page 7 of 15
�OH-050 Transcript
FINFER: I don’t know if I would—I certainly saw the buses going around under police
protection. I don’t remember if I saw a specific act of violence. I had been a victim of street
crime a number of different times over a period of time, so I’ve seen that, and know some of the
fears involved in that and walking in certain areas and how people are looked—what happens.
And there was a period—I still sort of feel it today—there are certain predominantly white
sections where you wouldn’t see a person of color, and sometimes today when I see a person of
color walking around, like Neponset Avenue, [in] Dorchester, I still do a slight double take
because there was a period where that wouldn’t happen because it wasn’t safe in the same way.
Even Castle Island, [in] South Boston, which is an area people love to go to walk because of the
walkway around there, there was a period where very few people of color would go there
because of some incidents, and now it’s sort of back to normal.
CROCKETT: Okay. How were people close to you affected by the Garrity decision?
FINFER: I think people felt strongly in both ways. The whites felt those resentments that I
talked about, “Why do our children have to get bussed and why can’t we go to a neighboring
school, and why do kids in suburban areas get to go to neighboring schools? Why is it wrong
somehow—why are we racist because we want our kids to go to neighboring schools?” I think
the African Americans mostly were, “We want better education for our kids.” I’m not sure if
they were hugely for busing. I think they were more for the perk basis, “If we want better
education and busing can give us a better education, we’re for it, but if there were other
improvements that could be made to schools in our own areas, we’d be for that too.”
So I think there were sort of different shades of opinion about it in the black community, because
there’s always better education for their kids, which in some cases they felt could be obtained
through integration and in some cases they felt there was a question of resources and resource
allocation. So there were different kinds of feelings about it, and chips that people have on their
shoulders, like, “Why are we getting targeted? If we’re black why are we getting targeted just
because we’re going to this neighborhood or because our kids are going to these schools?” And
whites also feeling like that somehow they’ll be a victim if they go in the wrong place at the
Page 8 of 15
�OH-050 Transcript
wrong time.
CROCKETT: You mentioned a little bit about the media before. Do you think they played an
accurate portrayal of the situations that you saw or that you heard about?
FINFER: Yeah, I think there was a lot of good reporting and attention to the issue. Probably to a
degree, some number of reporters come from more middle class backgrounds or suburban
backgrounds, so it was harder for them to understand, in some ways, the grays of the situation.
It’s not just so black and white, as the saying goes, and obviously it’s a strange metaphor,
because this is a lot about blacks and whites too, but there are a lot of grays in this situation. I
think some reporters get it, got it, and editors got that, and some didn’t. Maybe they may have
had a judgment one way or the other, and so that affected what they were doing. I think it really
varied.
But I think what was interesting was Tom Winship was the editor of the Boston Globe during
this period, and there was an interview with him a few years before he died, which was in the
midnineties, where he said in retrospect, maybe they should have perhaps not completely been
for a full desegregation of the system all at once, maybe there was a need for more gradual
desegregation, and that he thought in retrospect maybe that they should have looked at some of
the grays of that situation, and it wasn’t just an all or nothing, one side was all right and one side
was all wrong. I thought that was pretty admirable that he was willing to say that, “Even though I
thought, overall, what we did was right, and I’d relive it, but maybe we made some mistakes too,
and should have heard and listened to some things and seen some of the grays and nuances.” So
I thought that was significant that someone who played such a significant role in media coverage
was able to look at that in that kind of a way. It doesn’t change what happened, but some people
never look back at what they did and acknowledge that they still felt they were mostly correct
but they might have made some mistakes. So I thought that was significant.
I thought there were a lot of accurate portrayals that certain reporters and columnists did, but
some people missed things—because it was such a highly charged thing, some people took a
stand on one side or the other and sort of wrote through that reflection rather than sort of steer
Page 9 of 15
�OH-050 Transcript
out and consider the things that don’t match that set of things you’ve come to, so I think it was a
mixed picture of how fair and effective the media was.
CROCKETT: Okay. I understand that you have school age children now. Where do they go to
school?
FINFER: I have a daughter who goes to high school in Boston, the Boston Latin School, and a
son who goes to what’s called the Neighborhood House Charter School. It’s a charter school
that’s in Dorchester, a few blocks from here.
CROCKETT: Okay. Did the Garrity decision or the busing that's going on now affect where
you chose to send your children to school?
FINFER: It affected us because both my children—my daughter went to—she was affected by
the racial assignment because there were still racial assignment codes when she went to school.
She's seventeen, so when she went to school there was still assignment codes. The city is divided
into three zones, so you can apply to schools in that zone, and then the assignments were still
based on balancing race, so she was affected in terms of what choices she had to go to school and
certain schools she couldn't get into because it related to racial balancing. What happened is a
certain number of schools would have better reputations. Everyone could apply but who got in
was governed by racial balance, so often times those schools have waiting lists.
CROCKETT: Busing is still in place today as you were just saying, yet Boston has the majority
of minority in the city, if that makes sense, compared to the white students. What are your
thoughts on the current situation? Do you think it’s good that we still have it in place?
FINFER: Have what in place?
CROCKETT: The school choice that you were just talking about.
Page 10 of 15
�OH-050 Transcript
FINFER: Yeah, I think to some degree. I mean on the one hand the system is predominantly
people of color and the school system is probably 80 percent and if you don’t count the exam
schools, then its probably 85 percent or something so it’s predominantly children of color but the
student assignment policy at least creates some—in a certain number of schools, some balance.
And then there’s certain neighborhoods like West Roxbury that are predominantly white, so that
if you didn’t have balance then you would have probably a few places in West Roxbury and ones
a little bit of South Boston, a little bit of East Boston or some places like that you might have
predominantly white schools or something, so I think the assignments give people some more
choice and prevent some of those kinds of things. But the city itself is much more integrated,
besides the numbers—I mean the city is about 51 percent children of color and in terms of
residents, in terms of public school students, it’s like I said, I think it’s over 80 percent. But then
the residential areas are much more integrated than they were in 1975, except for like I said,
West Roxbury and Back Bay or something where people of color are living to a degree and all
the other areas to some degree, which wasn’t true in 1975.
CROCKETT: Where do you see the future of Boston Public Schools?
FINFER: I think it has now really the same issues as every urban school system. It’s a
combination of on the one hand, there’s not enough money to provide all the kinds of support
and class sizes and media work and work to work with kids who are doing well or doing okay.
There’s all those kinds of challenges related to funding, challenges that relates—funding that
relates to teacher training and support.
Then there are all those issues that some kids come from homes where there are a lot of
difficulties happening, so at points it can be hard for them to focus in school if their home life is
not in good shape, which it is for a percentage of students. I think the school system has all those
challenges, which are true in most cities, and then there’s a question of leadership, like the effort
to break up high schools into smaller high schools is a good thing so kids aren’t lost, but it’s also
taken a long time to do that, and it’s still not fully implemented.
Page 11 of 15
�OH-050 Transcript
Then all the questions of accountability—what’s a fair amount of accountability for teachers and
parents and principals and administrators is not really defined as easy for sort of anyone sitting in
any of those categories to some degree say, the problem is the teachers, the problem is the
administrators, the problem is the parents. There’s not enough accountability or a shared sense of
what the accountability should be in all those sectors. So that’s the challenge here as it is in most
urban public school systems.
Then you have this problem that a large number of voters don’t send their kids to public schools.
So a significant number of voters either don’t have children or have some children in parochial
or private schools so that the sort of basic support for public education is not strong enough at
times.
Then you have a significant number of children of color, you know, three or four thousand, in
what’s called the Metco program,3 which is a good opportunity for them but, in a sense, then it
takes those parents, who are pretty motivated parents usually to sign their kids up for that
support, but then in a sense it takes them out of the politics of the Boston school system because
it’s not going to be that huge of a priority to them because their kids are somewhere else. So
you’re taking several thousand pretty motivated parents of color who take themselves out of the
politics as a major issue to themselves. So those are the problems built into that. With the charter
schools, it’s sort of a similar thing. It can be a good opportunity for some kids because in some
cases the class is a little smaller or the school organizes the resources, so it may be a good
alternative for some kids, but again, it takes those parents out of, in some degree, politically
caring as much about what goes on in the Boston Public Schools. So those are all realities that
affect the politics that support the public education.
CROCKETT: Okay. Is there anything else you’d like to comment about that I missed that you
feel is essential for our audience to know?
3
The Metco Program is a grant program funded by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. It is a voluntary program
intended to expand educational opportunities and reduce racial imbalance, by permitting students in certain cities to
attend public schools in other communities that have agreed to participate. (Taken from the Massachusetts
Department of Education website.)
Page 12 of 15
�OH-050 Transcript
FINFER: I think the way it comes down in history, it illustrates sort of the divergence of how
people see the history. That if you’re talking to someone who is a white, working class person,
who grew up in Boston, who is say, over forty, they call it busing—what happened, they call it
busing, or “the busing.” And if you talk to someone who’s African American, who’s that age, or
someone who is a very liberal white, they would call it desegregation. So you still have this
divergence of looking at this same event. One set of people calling it desegregation, another set
of people calling it busing illustrates this sort of divide based on viewpoint politics, race, class
and so forth. So that’s the reality, but it’s sort of poignant irony that that divergence is still there
and in a sense aimed at how people apply it to their history.
I think there’s also a lot to be written about how this affected the kids who were in the system at
this point in some of the schools where there were a lot of incidents, how it affected them and
their experience in the schools as well as how they view people of other races. I think there’s a
whole group of thousands of them, then-students and children who are now adults, but were also
shaped from these events. There were some positives from just having to meet and know people
of other backgrounds and also sort of consider the politics in something like this and obviously
there are lots of negatives for what went on and more chips on their shoulders, still. So I think
that’s a very important part of it.
I think the other thing I didn’t mention earlier is I went to—there were large anti-busing
organizations that had different names. ROAR was one of the groups, Restore Our Alienated
Rights, which was mostly out of South Boston but also was in other neighborhoods. Powder Keg
was a group in Charlestown, and there was another one in Hyde Park, and I went to one of the
Dorchester meetings just to see what people were saying. I could feel—just remember feeling
how much anger and powerlessness and wanting to act that people were feeling about the court
decision.
It also made me try to understand the racism, and what element of racism is here of people you
don’t know. It could be that people haven’t drawn the line, that they aren’t willing to learn and
know something and what element is hatred. Sometimes the word, I think, is very broad and it
lumps the two together when the large majority of people who have fears are still approachable
Page 13 of 15
�OH-050 Transcript
or could be approachable and you could connect to them. There is, I would say, a small minority,
which is not insignificant because what they might do, who have hatred, and you usually can’t
change that, but I also think the term is—sometimes one word is not helpful in that kind of way
because it’s a broad brush, but it doesn’t mean that if you have fears you don’t have things
you’ve got to deal with or certainly instill your behavior and decisions towards each other, so it’s
not something to take lightly. But it’s still a broad brush of a term to some degree. So those are
some of the things I remember.
CROCKETT: Looking back, how do you feel now about the busing, or desegregation?
FINFER: In what sense? How do I feel now?
CROCKETT: Retrospectively.
FINFER: I think retrospectively, the negatives are the divisions that people had then and carried
with them over the years, and probably the positives, some of them were the reorganization of
the school system and its modernization in some of them—the creation of more opportunities.
The court ordered a number of corporations and universities to get more involved with schools,
so some of the resources and time with that has helped.
I think there’s another element to busing that’s very important politically. The Democratic Party,
which used to control Congress for most of the time from 1932 to 1992 and controlled the
presidency the majority of the years from that period mostly broke apart around issues of race
which was reflected a lot in school desegregation around the country as well as issues around
Vietnam War and cultural issues, so in some ways we haven’t recovered from the divisions,
which busing and desegregation is one of those divisions. People’s resentment towards the
government making these decisions based on this criteria ended up reflecting in their politics,
such that you had a number of Democrats who became Republicans or vote Republican because
of that. So what people call “the Reagan Democrats” who are really working class people who
voted Democrat most of the time but then started to vote for Republicans over some of these,
what people sometimes call social or cultural issues, which were back then around race relations
Page 14 of 15
�OH-050 Transcript
and perceptions of which side we stood on certain issues, militancy and so forth, and then today
the same kind of battle continues but it also includes social issues like gay rights and abortion
and so forth. But the loss of power in the Democratic Party and the liberal vision and the role the
government can play positively and all that kind of stuff—a lot of that decline goes back to the
divisions that were engendered through busing and desegregation.
It’s one of those things, on the one hand, schools’ discrimination—there was certain action that
probably needed to be taken, but there was also—some of the action wasn’t constructive or
thoughtful enough so you had a lot of reactions. Like I said, if there had been a gradual
implementation to the desegregation order, there might have been other kinds of reactions or
lessons that other people had. So we live also with those divisions people carry with them—are
not only the rules of the school system now, but in same ways the whole politics of the whole
United States in terms of the country being more conservative, quote-unquote, and the
Republicans holding complete power on the national level come back in part to the kind of
divisions like this that happened in Boston and that similarly happened in a number of other
communities around the country.
CROCKETT: Thank you very much for your time.
FINFER: Sure. Would it help? (papers rustling) I wrote an article about some of this last year;
would it help to give you a copy of that for your background? [attachment A]
CROCKETT: Oh sure, that’d be great.
Page 15 of 15
�OH-050 Attachments
Attachment A
June 23, 2004, Boston Globe op-ed article, “Boston and Busing, 30 Years
Later,” by Lewis Finfer
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers, 1926-2001
Subject
The topic of the resource
Boston (Mass.)<br />Legislators--United States <br />Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001<br /> South Boston (Boston, Mass.)<br />Legislators. Massachusetts<br />Politicians--Massachusetts
Description
An account of the resource
The paper of Congressman John Joseph Moakley are housed at the Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.<br /><br />The sample of items from the Moakley papers exhibited on this site are used courtesy of the Moakley Archive and Institute. The full collection documents Moakley’s early life, his World War II service, his terms in the Massachusetts House of Representatives and Senate, and his service in Congress. The majority of the collection covers Moakley’s congressional career from 1973 until 2001. A <a title="Moakley papers" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/MoakleyArchive/ms100.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> the the collection is available online. <br /><br />The collection is open for research. Access to materials may be restricted based on their condition. Please consult the <a title="Moakley Archive" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/moakley" target="_blank">Moakley Archive and Institute</a>, Suffolk University for more information.
Creator
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Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001.
Source
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers (MS 100), 1926-2001. View the <a title="John Joseph Moakley Papers" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/MoakleyArchive/ms100.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> at the Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.
Publisher
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Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.
Date
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1926-2001
Rights
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Items highlighted from the Moakley papers in this online collection are made available for research and educational purposes by the Moakley Archive & Institute. <br /><br />Copyright is retained by the creators of items in the Moakley papers, or their descendants, as stipulated by United States copyright law. This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the Moakley Archive & Institute. Prior permission is required for any commercial use.
Relation
A related resource
<div>
<div>
<p>Moakley Papers: Moakley Oral History Project<br />Enemies of War Collection (MS 104)<br /> Jamaica Plain Committee on Central America Collection (MS 103)</p>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
Contributor
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Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University.
Format
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300.7 cubic feet (521 boxes)
Language
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English
Type
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Text
Image
Identifier
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MS 100
Coverage
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Boston, Mass.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Crockett, Brynn
Interviewee
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Finfer, Lewis
Location
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Office of Lewis Finfer, Dorchester, Mass.
Transcription
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See PDF trancsript
Original Format
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MP3 audio file
Note: Original audio recording is available for listening at the John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
Duration
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33:29
Time Summary
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Mr. Finfer’s background p. 3 (00:13)
His reaction to the Garrity decision p. 4 (01:08)
Community climate and reactions p. 4 (02:10)
Personal experiences p. 6 (06:58)
More on community reactions p. 8 (12:26)
Media portrayal p. 8 (14:06)
Boston Public Schools today and in the future p. 9 (17:23)
Historical legacy of the decision p. 12 (24:50)
Politics of the decision p. 14 (29:54)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Transcript of Oral History Interview with Lewis Finfer
Subject
The topic of the resource
Boston (Mass.)
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Lewis Finfer, a community organizer with neighborhood and citywide groups in the Boston area, reflects on the impact of Judge W. Arthur Garrity's 1974 decision in the case of Morgan v. Hennigan, which required some students to be bused between Boston neighborhoods with the goal of creating racial balance in the public schools. He discusses the racial and social climate in Boston in the 1970s; reactions of the white and black communities to the decision; the condition of the Boston Public Schools; and the political aspects and ramifications of the decision.
Creator
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Moakley Oral History Project
Publisher
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
Date
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March 21, 2005
Contributor
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Kintz, Laura
Rights
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Copyright Suffolk University. This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute. Prior permission is required for any commercial use.
Relation
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Moakley Oral History Project: http://moakleyarchive.omeka.net/collections/show/1
Format
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PDF (Computer file format)
Language
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English
Type
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Oral history interview transcript
Identifier
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OH-050