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Oral History Interview of Joanne Sweeney (OH-049)
Moakley Archive and Institute
www.suffolk.edu/moakley
archives@suffolk.edu
Oral History Interview of Joanne Sweeney
Interview Date: April 2, 2005
Interviewed by: Matthew Wilding, Suffolk University Student from History 364: Oral History
Citation: Sweeney, Joanne. Interviewed by Matthew Wilding. John Joseph Moakley Oral
History Project OH-049. 2 April 2005. Transcript and audio available. John Joseph Moakley
Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, MA.
Copyright information: Copyright ©2005, Suffolk University.
Interview Summary
Joanne Sweeney, a lifelong resident of South Boston, discusses the impact of the 1974 Garrity
decision, which required students to be bused between Boston neighborhoods with the intention
of creating racial balance in the public schools. The interview covers the reaction to the decision
in South Boston; her family’s community activism; that state of the Boston Public Schools; and
her feelings about the portrayal of South Boston as “racist”.
Subject Headlines
Busing for school integration
Morgan v. Hennigan (379 F. Supp. 410)
South Boston (Boston, Mass.)
Sweeney, Joanne
Table of Contents
Ms. Sweeney’s background
p. 3 (00:02)
Reactions to the Garrity decision and community
activism in South Boston
p. 4 (00:40)
Violence and media coverage
p. 8 (08:07)
Impact of the Garrity decision on South Boston
p. 11 (14:26)
Reflections on the Boston Public Schools and
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
1
�perceptions of South Boston
p. 14 (21:32)
Page 2 of 15
�OH-049 Transcript
Interview Transcript
MATT WILDING: It is April 2, 2005. I am in the Moakley Archive in the Suffolk Law Library
interviewing Joanne Sweeney. Interviewer name, Matt Wilding. Could you say your full name
please?
JOANNE SWEENEY: Joanne Sweeney.
WILDING: Okay, and where are you from?
SWEENEY: South Boston.
WILDING: How long have you lived there?
SWEENEY: I’ve lived there all my life, forty-five years.
WILDING: And where did you go to school?
SWEENEY: I went to St. Brigid’s for elementary school, then I went to Girls’ Latin1 for high
school.
WILDING: And that’s a test school?
SWEENEY: An exam school, yes.
WILDING: Do you have any siblings?
SWEENEY: I have one sister.
1
Girls’ Latin School was a public exam school that was founded in Boston in 1877. It had several locations
throughout its history, including the South End, the Fenway neighborhood, and Dorchester. It became Boston Latin
Academy in the 1970s after the Boston School Committee ordered that it comply with a state law that ended sex
discrimination in public schools. Boston Latin Academy is now located in Boston’s Roxbury neighborhood.
Page 3 of 15
�OH-049 Transcript
WILDING: And where did she go to school?
SWEENEY: She also went to Girls’ Latin.
WILDING: What grade were you in when the Garrity decision2 came down?
SWEENEY: I was about in the ninth grade, I think, at the time.
WILDING: Okay, and had you already been accepted to the Latin School by that time?
SWEENEY: Yes.
WILDING: So did the decision directly affect you in your education in any way?
SWEENEY: In terms of which school I was going to or—?
WILDING: Yeah, like was there a difference in the population of the school? Were more black
students admitted as a result of this or—?
SWEENEY: At the time, no. Girls’ Latin School at that time wasn’t very diverse. There were
few minorities, there were Chinese, black students, but it was predominantly white. The decision
really didn’t affect me in terms of which school I was going to; I already knew I was going to go
to that school. It wasn’t affected by busing because it was an exam school.
WILDING: And how did this decision affect your community?
2
The Garrity decision refers to the June 21, 1974, opinion filed by Judge W. Arthur Garrity in the case of Tallulah
Morgan et al. v. James Hennigan et al. (379 F. Supp. 410). Judge Garrity ruled that the Boston School Committee
had “intentionally brought about and maintained racial segregation” in the Boston Public Schools. When the school
committee did not submit a workable desegregation plan as the opinion had required, the court established a plan
that called for some students to be bused from their own neighborhoods to attend schools in other neighborhoods,
with the goal of creating racial balance in the Boston Public Schools. (See
http://www.lib.umb.edu/archives/garrity2.html for more information)
Page 4 of 15
�OH-049 Transcript
SWEENEY: It affected my community greatly, in several ways. It ripped the community apart,
but it also pulled it together. It ripped the community apart in terms of people fled the city, they
felt they had no options of where they wanted to send their children to school. They couldn’t, so
they chose to leave and utilize other towns’ school systems. But it really brought the community
together, being together to fight the decision. You know, just growing up there, I felt that there
was a fierce pride in the community. We were going to come together against this decision.
WILDING: What was your initial reaction to the decision when it came down, initially?
SWEENEY: The original decision was sort of, everybody felt like, “Hell no! We won’t go!” and
that was sort of the battle cry. And even though, like I said, it didn’t affect me—I wasn’t going to
be attending a school that was affected—we just felt we were going to come together and support
everyone it did affect. So that was our initial reaction: Nope, you’re not going to do it to us.
WILDING: And was your opinion affected by your parents at all or was this your decision?
SWEENEY: It probably was influenced by my parents, but I did feel that way. But I was only
fourteen at the time, so I think it was heavily influenced by my parents.
WILDING: You mentioned to me, aside from this interview, that you sort of became an activist
against it. At what point did you actively get involved in opposing the position?
SWEENEY: We probably started—I'm trying to think if it was—sorry—
WILDING: That's fine, don't worry about it. Got all the time you need.
SWEENEY: Okay, we just probably—while the decision was being made, before they came
down with the definite decision, and we just started protests and wanted to have our opinions
made known.
Page 5 of 15
�OH-049 Transcript
WILDING: Now was this an organized effort or were people just turning up at city hall
meetings? How did you go about doing this?
SWEENEY: The ones that I was involved in were organized. I think that people were sort of
just showing up at different places. They decided to, I think, formally organize—they, South
Boston. And I think some of the other communities had information centers, we had a South
Boston Information Center, and that was sort of like a clearing house of information where
people could call there and see what was happening and when, and so they started planning a lot
of rallies and marches and motorcades and things like that.
WILDING: And what was your role in all of this? Were you an activist or did you get involved
in the planning or—?
SWEENEY: Well at the time I wasn't involved in planning; I was really too young. My mother
was involved more with that, so I was more of an activist. I went on marches and rallies and
things like that.
WILDING: You mentioned your mother being involved in organization; she was a member of
ROAR? And what does ROAR stand for?
SWEENEY: Restore Our Alienated Rights.
WILDING: Can you talk a bit about ROAR specifically?
SWEENEY: ROAR was just more the same thing, people just meeting and deciding how they
could share their opinions and viewpoints, and they organized the marches and rallies. We
marched to city hall once, and actually different sections of the city all got together and we left
from South Boston, people from Charlestown, we all met at City Hall Plaza, huge rally there. We
had motorcades too, just around South Boston. We drove to Judge Garrity's house one time.
WILDING: How did that go?
Page 6 of 15
�OH-049 Transcript
SWEENEY: I think he wasn't home when we got there but it really brought people together and
people just felt very strongly. Another big rally we had at Farragut Park in South Boston; it was
South Shore Supports Busing, so a lot of South Shore communities had people get together in a
motorcade and they all met in South Boston for a final rally. Farragut Park. So it was sort of
beyond South Boston.
WILDING: Now, is it South Shore Supports Busing you say?
SWEENEY: I'm sorry—opposes. But supports South Boston in against the fight, is what I
meant to say. I'm sorry.
WILDING: That's fine, I just wanted to clarify. You mentioned the city hall rally, was that the
city hall rally where the gentlemen was stabbed or prodded with the pole?
SWEENEY: I'm not sure because I was at the city hall rally so I think it was, but I'm not 100
percent sure. I didn't actually see that happening. I knew the person that did that and of course
saw the picture. 3
WILDING: Yeah, everyone's see the picture. So from your standpoint, what was the climate
like at the city hall protest that you were at?
SWEENEY: I didn't see violent acts or things like that. I saw a lot of families there protesting
with signs, and there were speakers all speaking out against it and just everybody coming
together to fight a cause.
WILDING: And you might not even remember this, but do you recall how many people you
3
Ms. Sweeney is referring to a Pulitzer Prize-winning photograph taken by Stanley J. Forman which depicts Joseph
Rakes, who is white, lunging at Ted Landsmark, who is black, with the staff of an American flag. The photograph
was taken in April of 1976 at an anti-busing protest on City Hall Plaza.
Page 7 of 15
�OH-049 Transcript
thought at the time were there? Did it seem like a million people?
SWEENEY: The City Hall Plaza was just filled wall to wall; it was big.
WILDING: Excellent. Going to Latin School, did you feel removed from the problems at the
high school in South Boston?
SWEENEY: I did. Going to Latin School, we were just a total separate entity. We didn't have
anything to do with any of this, but I had friends that were involved. I remember driving—we
were coming home from school one day, riding along the bus route on just the public
transportation, and we looked up at the high school and there was a big riot going on and it was
just there. We saw it, everyday. But actually being in Latin School was a completely different
world there.
WILDING: So you saw the riots from public transportation?
SWEENEY: Well, yeah, I was driving by on the way home, and actually we came home from
school, my sister and I, and my mother wasn't home, which was unusual. And I actually live on
6th Street, and South Boston High is at the top of 6th Street. We looked up the street and saw a
big riot and we weren't sure what we should do. My mother was always wanting to grab her
movie camera and run so she would film a lot of the events, so we did go up and saw some of
what was going on up there. And actually, that particular day came to be known, I believe, as
Black Tuesday. It was the day that one of the students, Michael Faith, was stabbed in the high
school, so it really caused a big riot.4
WILDING: From your perspective of seeing it because the media has a—what a lot of people
would say was a biased take on a lot of that. From where you were standing, what did it look like
was happening?
4
On December 11, 1974, Michael Faith, a white student at South Boston High School, was stabbed by James White,
a black student, in a hallway at the high school.
Page 8 of 15
�OH-049 Transcript
SWEENEY: Absolutely. Well I actually came home from school and had no clue as to what was
happening at the time so I just saw a riot going on; there were police men on horses, people were
running, there were at the time tactical police force—TPF they were called—and they just used
to line the street in riot gear. So I really just came upon this riot scene and I didn't get too close to
it but we knew something had happened in the high school at that point, but we weren't sure
what. We knew definitely some event happened; it wasn't just your average day of busing.
WILDING: Was there any other violence that you recall in South Boston or elsewhere in
regards to this?
SWEENEY: I knew of a lot of violence. I didn't actually witness a lot of it but I knew of a lot of
cars being overturned, rocks being thrown, unfortunately a black bus driver on the T was beaten,
things like that.
WILDING: I wasn't aware of that.
SWEENEY: Also, can I add to that too that at one point David Duke from the KKK5 came in
and, you know, the media sort of portrayed us as being racist, so they came in and thought they
were going to band together the community and get everybody to join the KKK. And actually
they asked the community to meet up at Dorchester Heights, it was sort of an after-hours at night
type of thing and a lot of teenagers were up there and David Duke and his cohorts were sort of
beaten and driven out. So, you know, the media tried to portray South Boston as being racist, and
it really had nothing to do with us being racist because I think if we were racist, they would've
joined the KKK, they would've said, Sure! What can you do to help us? But no, they were beaten
and driven out.
WILDING: Wow, were you at that incident?
SWEENEY: I wasn't, but I do know people that were.
5
David Duke (1950- ) is a former republican member of the Louisiana House of Representatives and a member of
the Ku Klux Klan. He founded the sub-group Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in Louisiana in 1976.
Page 9 of 15
�OH-049 Transcript
WILDING: And was that covered by the media at all? The beating?
SWEENEY: No, not that I know of. I'm not really sure.
WILDING: That's really interesting, but it wasn't like front-page news the next day?
SWEENEY: No, no, and that's why I feel a definite slant against South Boston through the
media perspective.
WILDING: Now, your impression of the media then, obviously that it's biased. Were there any
specific media organizations that were more biased than others or was this across the board?
SWEENEY: Well, I pretty much feel it was across the board, but of course South Boston has
been known to not like the [Boston] Globe newspaper; they really painted a definite picture that
we felt wasn't accurate.
WILDING: And this relates to that, today, what paper do you read?
SWEENEY: I read the [Boston] Herald, I do get the Sunday Globe, but yes I read the Herald. I
still don't like the Globe.
WILDING: Do you think that the presence of the media—there was a regular presence of the
media at this time in South Boston particularly around the high school; do you think that
influenced the activities that were going on?
SWEENEY: Absolutely, it absolutely did.
WILDING: In what way?
SWEENEY: Well I feel that initially, the whole thing was just about trying to improve schools
Page 10 of 15
�OH-049 Transcript
and they wanted to desegregate and get people to just mix up the schools, but the media made it
into a racial issue where I don't think that it was, in our minds, a racial issue. We were just being
told to do something that we didn't feel we should be told to do and they just really put a racial
slant on it.
WILDING: You mentioned that some of your friends had been directly affected; what were
affects on them education-wise and just socially? Did you see changes in people as a result of it?
SWEENEY: Oh yes, absolutely. Education was basically interrupted into varying degrees. Some
kids missed months of school, other kids missed maybe a year or so of school and there were
kids that dropped out completely and then there were the families that just up and left. And it
also affected—what was the other half of the question?
WILDING: How did it affect them socially?
SWEENEY: Socially? In different ways—it was interesting that people really came together to
fight a cause. It was really like we were fighting a battle, fighting a war, and people just really
kind of came together with that. But I do think that with the media, the way they put a spin on it,
where it didn't start out with racial overtones—I think with teenagers, a black face on a school
bus just came to symbolize what it was all about for them, so a lot of people I think maybe they
would not have necessarily been racist, it just they ended up— race became the main focal point
for a lot of the teenagers I think.
WILDING: So did you see any positives in the busing or was this an across-the-board negative
affect?
SWEENEY: The only positive I can see is really the way the community came together to fight
a cause that they didn't feel was just. I really still feel, to this day, very proud of my community.
It's interesting, I have a seventeen year old daughter and she's sort of embarrassed to be from
South Boston because to this day we still have a stigma attached to us. Growing up in the
community, people just think of you in a certain way. So it's hard for her. She now is at Latin
Page 11 of 15
�OH-049 Transcript
School, so she's out with a lot of different people, and they have a preconceived notion of who
she is because of where she comes from. But I feel just the opposite coming from South Boston,
and I think it's because we all went through that, we all went through something together.
WILDING: So your children are in public school?
SWEENEY: Well my daughter is. I have two in parochial school and actually my son will be
going to Latin School next year.
WILDING: So did your experience in school influence what you wanted your kids to go
through?
SWEENEY: In terms of?
WILDING: Did you want them to be in public school or does it not matter to you?
SWEENEY: I guess I just want them to be in a good school; if I felt that the public schools had
something good to offer, then I would send them there. At this point I feel that actually this
whole thing destroyed the public school system as it stands today. I feel the only people that
really utilize Boston public schools are people that have no choice. They just can't afford to send
their children to private school and I think the only exceptions, really, are the exam schools.
WILDING: You mentioned to me, previous to this interview, that your best friend in high
school was black and lived in Mattapan. Did that relationship affect your opinions regarding
segregation and race and things of that nature?
SWEENEY: Could you just repeat that?
WILDING: Just saying that your best friend was a black student from Mattapan, and did that
affect your opinions regarding segregation and race?
Page 12 of 15
�OH-049 Transcript
SWEENEY: I don't think the friendship really affected my opinions; this was the whole point
was we weren't racist to begin with. So I went to school, and I just had black friends and my best
friend was black and I don't think that relationship affected how I viewed things, but I think that
the whole issue affected my relationship with her because it was limited to what we could do.
She only came to my house once and we literally had to smuggle her in the back seat of a car;
she had to hide, and when she came out of the car we had to run her into my house and literally
almost caused a car crash. There was a guy driving down the street and did a double-take,
couldn't believe that there was a black person going into somebody's house in South Boston. And
I never went to her house and she later moved to Stoughton and I could go visit her. We largely
went to an after school program at the Museum of Fine Arts, so we did that kind of stuff
together. It was sort of neutral ground really.
WILDING: Did she move to Stoughton while you guys were still in school?
SWEENEY: She did, in senior year of high school.
WILDING: Could you go into that relationship, how the communities on both sides were taking
it? Was it completely, across-the-board, common that black people wouldn't be in Southie and
white people wouldn't be in Mattapan?
SWEENEY: Pretty much, you know, before the whole thing, there were black people that lived
in South Boston. The tensions flared during the whole decision period, and it just became a racial
issue and black people couldn't go to South Boston without fearing for their lives, literally. And
the other way around, white people were fearful of going to Dorchester, Roxbury; they were
fearful for their lives. Things happened in South Boston, but things also happened in Roxbury,
Dorchester that weren't reported in the media and it was always portrayed that it was South
Boston, we were racist; but the same things were going on in Roxbury, Dorchester, against
whites, but I just feel like that wasn't reported.
WILDING: And where did you two meet? Was it at the Latin School?
Page 13 of 15
�OH-049 Transcript
SWEENEY: We met at Latin School.
WILDING: Did you, at the time, think that segregation was a problem? And if so, did it need to
be addressed or was it just a non-problem that was created?
SWEENEY: The way I see it, I don't think that it was segregation as much as the school system
itself needed to be fixed. And people just wanted to go to their neighborhood schools and that
includes people from Dorchester, Roxbury, white people, black people, everybody just wanted to
walk to their neighborhood schools. At a lot of the marches and rallies, there were black families
protesting against it because they wanted their children to go to the neighborhood school. So I
feel that the whole issue really was just the inequality of the schools themselves.
WILDING: Regarding the court case obviously, there was the de facto segregation aspect of it;
was there any other way to solve this?
SWEENEY: Any other way, besides busing?
WILDING: Yeah.
SWEENEY: I just feel that they should have put the money into the school system itself: repair
the schools, buy some books. The money that they have spent on buses alone—if they just took
that money and put it into the schools, I think we'd all be in a much better place right now.
WILDING: From a political standpoint, in the period, this got to court, some would say, as a
result of the politicians not dealing with it. Do you think there's truth to that or do you think they
just didn't see it as something that needed to be done?
SWEENEY: I'm not really sure. I think I do see truth in that statement; I don't think it should've
ever gotten to that level. It should have been dealt with before that.
WILDING: Looking back, do you still feel the same way about all of this as you did then? Have
Page 14 of 15
�OH-049 Transcript
you changed your opinions at all?
SWEENEY: No, I still feel the same way. I really don't see why children have to be bused clear
across the city, especially young children. I feel the same.
WILDING: Is there anything else that you want on record, regarding this?
SWEENEY: Well, I guess just from the whole thing, I still feel badly that South Boston has this
stigma attached to it. I just don't feel that it's fair or deserved. People have an opinion of us, as
South Bostonians, especially the people that grew up there, and it's not deserved.
WILDING: Okay.
END OF INTERVIEW
Page 15 of 15
�
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Title
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers, 1926-2001
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Boston (Mass.)<br />Legislators--United States <br />Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001<br /> South Boston (Boston, Mass.)<br />Legislators. Massachusetts<br />Politicians--Massachusetts
Description
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The paper of Congressman John Joseph Moakley are housed at the Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.<br /><br />The sample of items from the Moakley papers exhibited on this site are used courtesy of the Moakley Archive and Institute. The full collection documents Moakley’s early life, his World War II service, his terms in the Massachusetts House of Representatives and Senate, and his service in Congress. The majority of the collection covers Moakley’s congressional career from 1973 until 2001. A <a title="Moakley papers" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/MoakleyArchive/ms100.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> the the collection is available online. <br /><br />The collection is open for research. Access to materials may be restricted based on their condition. Please consult the <a title="Moakley Archive" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/moakley" target="_blank">Moakley Archive and Institute</a>, Suffolk University for more information.
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Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001.
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers (MS 100), 1926-2001. View the <a title="John Joseph Moakley Papers" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/MoakleyArchive/ms100.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> at the Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.
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Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.
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1926-2001
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Items highlighted from the Moakley papers in this online collection are made available for research and educational purposes by the Moakley Archive & Institute. <br /><br />Copyright is retained by the creators of items in the Moakley papers, or their descendants, as stipulated by United States copyright law. This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the Moakley Archive & Institute. Prior permission is required for any commercial use.
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<div>
<div>
<p>Moakley Papers: Moakley Oral History Project<br />Enemies of War Collection (MS 104)<br /> Jamaica Plain Committee on Central America Collection (MS 103)</p>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
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Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University.
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300.7 cubic feet (521 boxes)
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English
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Text
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MS 100
Coverage
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Boston, Mass.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Wilding, Matthew
Interviewee
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Sweeney, Joanne
Location
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Suffolk University Law School, Boston, Mass.
Transcription
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See PDF transcript
Original Format
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MP3 audio file
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24:26
Time Summary
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Ms. Sweeney’s background p. 3 (00:02)
Reactions to the Garrity decision and community activism in South Boston p. 4 (00:40)
Violence and media coverage p. 8 (08:07)
Impact of the Garrity decision on South Boston p. 11 (14:26)
Reflections on the Boston Public Schools and perceptions of South Boston p. 14 (21:32)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Transcript of Oral History Interview of Joanne Sweeney
Subject
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Boston (Mass.)
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
South Boston (Boston, Mass.)
Description
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In this interview, Joanne Sweeney, a lifelong resident of South Boston, Massachusetts, reflects on the impact of Judge W. Arthur Garrity's 1974 decision in the case of Morgan v. Hennigan, which required some students to be bused between Boston neighborhoods with the goal of creating racial balance in the public schools. She discusses the reaction to the decision in South Boston; her family’s community activism; that state of the Boston Public Schools; and her feelings about the portrayal of South Boston as “racist”.
Creator
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
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Moakley Oral History Project
Publisher
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
Date
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April 2, 2005
Contributor
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Kintz, Laura
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OH-049
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Oral History Interview of James Feeney (OH-048)
Moakley Archive and Institute
www.suffolk.edu/moakley
archives@suffolk.edu
Oral History Interview of James P. Feeney
Interview Date: February 16, 2005
Interviewed by: Michael Owens, Suffolk University student from History 364: Oral History
Citation: Feeney, James P. Interviewed by Michael Owens. John Joseph Moakley Oral History
Project OH-048. 16 February 2005. Transcript and audio available. John Joseph Moakley
Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, MA.
Copyright Information: Copyright ©2005, Suffolk University.
Interview Summary
James P. Feeney, who was born and raised in South Boston, Massachusetts, discusses the impact
of the 1974 Garrity decision, which required students to be bused between Boston neighborhoods
with the intention of creating racial balance in the public schools. The interview covers South
Boston’s reaction to the decision; the media coverage of the aftermath of the decision; various
protests and demonstrations that took place; and how the dynamics of South Boston changed
during that time period.
Subject Headings
Busing for school integration
Feeney, James P.
Morgan v. Hennigan (379 F. Supp. 410)
South Boston (Boston, Mass.)
Table of Contents
Mr. Feeney’s background
p. 3 (00:50)
Reactions to the Garrity decision
p. 4 (02:48)
Anti-busing activism and media coverage
p. 6 (07:20)
Impact of the decision on South Boston
p. 8 (15:30)
Reflections on his anti-busing activism, his family’s
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
1
�experiences, and local politicians
p. 13 (21:28)
Interview transcript begins on next page
Page 2 of 18
�OH-048 Transcript
This interview took place on February 16, 2005, at the John Joseph Moakley Law Library,
Suffolk University Law School, 120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA
.
Interview Transcript
MICHAEL OWENS: First we’ll start off a little bit with your family background, just sort of
get started. If you could just tell me what your name is, where you’re from.
JAMES P. FEENEY: James Feeney, from Southie, born and brought up in South Boston. Five
years I lived down the lower end down on West 5th, and then moved up to East 5th, that was a
great move we went from West 5th to East 5th. Now I lived there in Southie for twenty-one
years.
OWENS: Can you just give me a little bit about your family background, your parents’ names?
FEENEY: They’re both Irish, they’re obviously of Irish decent. My mom is Eleanor
O’Connor, my dad is James also. My mother was Southie born and bred till the day she leaves,
and my dad was from Dorchester.
OWENS: No siblings?
FEENEY: I have an older brother Jackie, and a younger sister, Claire.
OWENS: Can you just tell me a little bit about growing up in Southie? Did you enjoy it?
FEENEY: I loved it. Truly. I lived in a great neighborhood. Every house on my street—
again it was between G and H at one time or another. I was in everybody’s house just growing
up. I remember it was like trick-or-treating and they were all three-deckers for the most part, so
you get to one house and you get three baskets of candy. I never really played organized sports,
but I never had a problem playing baseball, football, street hockey, all down the line.
Page 3 of 18
�OH-048 Transcript
OWENS: Would you say that the neighborhoods in South Boston were similar or would you
say that the makeup of one neighborhood might be different from another?
FEENEY: Sadly, they were different. I think the lower end, a lot of them were one-parent
families. For my own way of thinking, I don’t think you had the camaraderie down the lower
end that you had either by the hill or the high school, or [the] more affluent, the people by the
point.
OWENS: What I want to do is just break up a little bit and go into the Garrity decision.1 Can
you just tell me where do you first remember hearing about the decision?
FEENEY: I think it was in the early seventies, ’73, ’74. I mean, that’s all you heard of. You
heard about it for years and the years prior too. So it wasn’t like all of a sudden you woke up
one morning and it was like, “Oh, what’s going to happen?” Stuff that you heard for a long
time was going to happen and then the decision was it probably would. I believe the first year
was 1974 when they first started the actual busing of the children.
OWENS: Do you recall how your family reacted to the decision?
FEENEY: Very upset. They are and still are a blue-collar family. Boston was also a town of
neighborhoods, and all of a sudden to find that you’re not going to have your close-knit of a
South Boston or East Boston or Charlestown, it was—they were very upset. You know, they
bought their house thinking, “Okay, I was within blocks, or a distance of a block, to the
grammar school, to the church, you know, the beach.” Everything was set up that way. All of a
sudden to have someone come and say it’s not going to be this way anymore—it was very hard.
1
The Garrity decision refers to the June 21, 1974, opinion filed by Judge W. Arthur Garrity in the case of Tallulah
Morgan et al. v. James Hennigan et al. (379 F. Supp. 410). Judge Garrity ruled that the Boston School Committee
had “intentionally brought about and maintained racial segregation” in the Boston Public Schools. When the school
committee did not submit a workable desegregation plan as the opinion had required, the court established a plan
that called for some students to be bused from their own neighborhoods to attend schools in other neighborhoods,
with the goal of creating racial balance in the Boston Public Schools. (See
http://www.lib.umb.edu/archives/garrity2.html for more information)
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�OH-048 Transcript
OWENS: What school did you go to growing up or which schools?
FEENEY: Grammar school wise, I went to the Benjamin Dean. Then they were called
grammar schools. I went there for five years, kindergarten through four. Then I went to the
Thomas M. Hart for five and six. Then I went to Patrick F. Gavin Junior High for the seventh
and eighth. And then I did four years high school at Boston Tech.
OWENS: So you were in high school when the Garrity decision was—
FEENEY: I was a junior the first year of busing.
OWENS: And was your school affected by it?
FEENEY: It wasn’t because Boston Tech was an exam school. We, for the most part, were
racially balanced, strictly on academic breakdown.
OWENS: In that case what I’m going to do is I’m just going to go ahead and talk a little bit
about how South Boston reacted to the decision a little bit.
FEENEY: Well I wasn’t involved as far as in the school, but I was affected in how we got to
school.
OWENS: Okay.
FEENEY: In the sense that, you could not be kept back [after] school anymore. [If] you had
detention, you had detention in the mornings. You had to do detention at six-thirty. They
didn’t want—I was bused every day but it was a chartered MTA2 bus. It wasn’t a yellow school
bus, so we came and went a lot more freely and were a lot more unnoticed. But if you did have
detention and whatnot you had to do it in the morning, because the only way to get home from
2
MTA stands for Metropolitan Transit Authority, which was the name for Massachusetts’ public transportation
system prior to 1964, when it became the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority.
Page 5 of 18
�OH-048 Transcript
Boston Tech was to connect through Dudley Station [in Boston’s Roxbury neighborhood].
Which would have been as bad for me as a black child, black kid, at the same time going to
Broadway Station [in South Boston]. It was just not the right thing to do, so they would have us
go to school in the morning instead.
OWENS: So did your school bus or did you witness any violence that occurred?
FEENEY: My bus was stoned once. And we didn’t even know it. There happened to be a
police car in the area and I remember now the police car pulling the bus over and asking was
anybody hurt, and the windows did not break through so no glass entered the bus.
OWENS: Did you have any friends from the neighborhood that attended other schools at the
time?
FEENEY: Most of my friends—again I was a junior—most of my friends at the time were
juniors or seniors and a lot of my friends who were seniors went to Newman Prep3 to finish off
so they wouldn’t be involved in it. They needed X amount of credits—they went to Newman
Prep and got their credits and their diplomas that way.
OWENS: So did they do that as a result of the Garrity decision?
FEENEY: Most definitely. They would have definitely rather gone through Southie High.
From Southie to Boston Tech, senior-wise there was maybe only ten seniors coming out of
Southie. As opposed to three, four hundred seniors in the high school. Tech was a very small
portion of South Boston.
OWENS: Were your parents involved in any political or grassroots?
3
Newman Prep refers to the Newman Preparatory School, a parochial high school in Boston’s Back Bay
neighborhood that is now called the Newman School.
Page 6 of 18
�OH-048 Transcript
FEENEY: Grassroots, nothing political. Myself, I went to motorcades almost every Sunday.
If there was a protest, we went. Sometimes we went for the fact of protesting, and sometimes—
I was seventeen, eighteen, so sometimes when we went it was going to be a rabble-rouser, as
you’ve seen when the Red Sox won the World Series. The rabblerousing was always done at
South Boston. A lot of times it was at night when the school was closed, but they still had all
the TPF [Tactical Patrol Force] police around the high school and you were only allowed to get
within one hundred yards. Sometimes it was just fun to see how far you could push the button
before you would get chased. And then if you got chased, and there were no students, you
weren’t doing any harm to anybody, they might have given you a boot and just told you to keep
going.
OWENS: Can you—oh, I’m sorry. (Mr. Owen and Mr. Feeney speaking at the same time)
FEENEY: We did all belong to ROAR., which was one of the anti-busing groups. ROAR was
Restore Our Alienated Rights. We all had the buttons on our jackets, whether it be the ROAR
button [attachment A] or the Stop Forced Busing button, which was a button with a stop sign
with a “Stop Forced Busing” in the middle of the button.
OWENS: Can you describe what those demonstrations were like?
FEENEY: They were very—mostly political. Most of them were either at city hall, or they
would pick on a politician of the day, and find out where he or she lived, and there’d be a
motorcade to that place. Some of it was trying to get—as busing went on, some communities
sort of left the fight if you will. East Boston initially was all behind the anti-busing movement.
Then when they found out that children cannot be bused through a tunnel or over a bridge, they
were not going to be affected anywhere near as much as Southie and Charlestown, and they sort
of dropped off the face of the map. So a lot of it too was just trying to keep the other
communities of Hyde Park, Southie, Charlestown, together.
OWENS: How were these demonstrations portrayed in the media?
Page 7 of 18
�OH-048 Transcript
FEENEY: For the most part they really weren’t bad or negative. My personal quirk that
always aggravated me was there would be a motorcade, and they might say there was five
hundred people attend the rally, fifty cars in the motorcade and they would always downsize.
For some reason, they didn’t downsize the crowds. But you would have to have like fifteen
people per car to get the numbers. That was a little quirk that always stuck out of my head.
[For] the most part they knew we were mad, we were fighting. The racism part really didn’t
come in the beginning. It was just community sort of being—we felt betrayed. We felt a lot of
politicians turned their back on us.
OWENS: When did the racism come in, and if so—
FEENEY: Oh, I didn’t think that it was “if,” I think it most definitely did. I think initially with
busing if you just said, “Southie, you’re going to go to Charlestown,” white kid on white kid,
you would have had the same fight. You know, “Why are we doing this? This is stupid.” But
then, when the racism did come, we felt—the whites in South Boston—at times felt the blacks
were being pampered. And probably the other way around. It’s just the view you are looking
through. The blacks probably felt the same idea, “Well, you know, they are siding with
Southie.” That was one way or the other. Then for five, ten years, South Boston had a
justifiable racism name to it. It was hard because, initially, the way the city is set up, whites had
to go through the black areas to go to work. It was a common thing. Blacks had—I mean this
in a nice way if it is—blacks had no reason to come through South Boston. It’s sort of an island
by itself. You didn’t have to go through Southie to go to work, and sadly they stood out more
when they did. Whether they were going to work it was—they were just more of a target,
because they stood out more. It wasn’t a common thing to see blacks going through South
Boston.
OWENS: (pauses to think) Would you say that there was a general consensus of the way that
South Boston felt, or did one neighborhood feel maybe stronger than another?
FEENEY: No. Southie was totally unified. Whether it be the housing projects or City Point.
Southie was totally unified against the decision.
Page 8 of 18
�OH-048 Transcript
OWENS: Do you ever recall any friendships being broken up because of this decision?
FEENEY: A lot of friendships were broken up, and I think a lot of it, too, were people who left
the city before hand. People were Southie born and bred, and they might have moved to Milton
or Quincy or Weymouth. I know there was a lot of friction there. I know my parents lost
friends that way. It’s like, “You people are racist; why are you doing this?” It’s like, “Well,
you know, stand in my shoes first, and then tell me what we are doing is 100 percent wrong.”
So there were definitely families—not families, but friendships divided and lost.
OWENS: This move out of South Boston, how was—
FEENEY: Well, this was before busing. This was just people who improved their finances
and just moved on. It’s—Southie was traditionally when you got money you went to Quincy.
[If] you couldn’t afford Milton, you went to Quincy and maybe Weymouth. And if you went
out in the early sixties, you could have gone to Hingham, before Hingham got to be, you know,
just too expensive.4 This is not the white flight that came afterwards, this was just, you know,
people who were advancing with their finances and said, “I can do better than this. I can get a
single family home with a yard. Instead of a three-decker with an alley way between the
houses.”
OWENS: Just to go back quickly about the media coverage. How long did the media coverage
last in South Boston?
FEENEY: Years. Truthfully, years. Not as much, but I mean again, with the students—when
the black students were at Southie High, they would go home at two when the day was over.
They would go home at two when the school day was over. You could go up there at ten
o’clock, and the media was up there at ten waiting for the powder keg to pop. It was almost like
great news, great—it sold a lot of papers.
4
Quincy, Milton, Weymouth and Hingham are all suburbs located south of Boston.
Page 9 of 18
�OH-048 Transcript
OWENS: Would you say that their presence provoked violence?
FEENEY: Yeah, well, I don’t want to say provoked. I don’t even want to say encouraged, it
just brought it on. There are a lot of kooks—if they are going to do something, they’d rather do
it on TV. And it’s like, “Oh, let’s do it now. We can see ourselves on the six o’clock news.”
OWENS: Do you think that that hurt Southie’s feeling about the Garrity decision, or the
message it was trying to get across?
FEENEY: Somewhat. It didn’t hurt their opinion of the decision. It hurt South Boston’s
reputation for a long time. Southie was an all-white community. Maybe 99 percent, but it
didn’t have any problems. And now we are a 99 percent white community that did have a lot of
problems.
OWENS: Do you think that they were portrayed that way on purpose? For example, there
were other communities that were having the same issues, but they necessarily weren’t as
targeted as South Boston.
FEENEY: No, they weren’t as vocal. Charlestown was portrayed almost as bad as Southie for
a long time. Hyde Park, Roslindale—they were more of a diverse community. They didn’t like
the idea of being bused to another community, but they already had a pretty good mix within
their—where they lived. It was pretty common to play ball with two black kids and a white kid.
They were more advanced in that aspect than we were. Southie was just—“We had our two
bridges, and don’t cross them.”
OWENS: Would you say that people in South Boston are still upset over the Garrity decision?
FEENEY: No, it’s been too long. It’s been, what, almost thirty years. People might way in
the back of their head think, “What did they do to the community?” They did destroy the
community. I never would have left South Boston. I had every intention of living in South
Boston my whole life, and because of that, South Boston as a community, the houses, couldn’t
Page 10 of 18
�OH-048 Transcript
be more expensive. So South Boston survived; the neighborhood did not. I can go out, see my
mom now after a snow storm—when I grew up there would be thirty, thirty-five, forty kids out
in the street having snowball fights. I go down there now, you might see two or three kids on
the street. In general families aren’t as big as they used to be, but you can just see it. They are
either yuppie families with no kids, or my mother’s generation, who is staying until the end.
When the time comes, we don’t want the house, we are just going to sell it. My siblings and I
will just sell it, and that was never the case before.
OWENS: What I’ll do now is just ask you a little bit about your wife. You mentioned in an
email that she went to South Boston High.
FEENEY: My wife— I didn’t know her at the time. My wife is only four months older than I
am, but because of that four months, she was one year higher in school, so we never met. We
had no ties until after high school. We met after high school. But my wife was a senior at
South Boston High. She was the class of ‘75. I am the class of ‘76. So she was the class of ‘75
at Southie High.
OWENS: What sort of reaction did she have toward the Garrity decision?
FEENEY: I don’t think—my wife, she wasn’t—I’m not saying I was political, but she
wasn’t—it was weird. I think I was more affected, and I didn’t even go to Southie High. She
was a senior; she just wanted to get out. She was number six of eight; there’s eight kids in her
family. She was the sixth graduating from Southie High, and she felt that they ruined that last
year of memories for her. Other than that, she just wanted out. She never attended any of the
rallies of any sort. Her family owned a house in Marlborough—not a house, but a cottage. So
she spent all of her summers in Marlborough, and a lot of weekends and such. So she didn’t
have the South Boston community aspect that I did. I went to Maine one week a year. That
was my trip out of Southie, and she was never really in Southie other than to go to school.
OWENS: While she was attending the school, did she ever mention any of the violence that
she might have experienced?
Page 11 of 18
�OH-048 Transcript
FEENEY: Yeah, she remembers quite often being chased down the hallways, and they would
put on announcements over the intercom: “Stay in your classroom.” Which was the stupidest
thing, you know, then of course every classroom would empty onto the street—not the street,
the hallways, and then they would truly just divide up—color-coded. The blacks would go to
one section, the whites would go to the other section. She always resented the metal detectors.
Not saying they weren’t really justified; there was a stabbing at that high school. But
sometimes they would even point down to her bra strap that was setting it off, and these kids
just wanted to go to school. Again, they wanted to have their senior prom, they wanted to have
their class day, and everything was completely overshadowed by the state troopers in the
hallway.
OWENS: Did she ever mention how the teachers and how the faculty reacted to this?
FEENEY: They were frustrated. Doc Reid,5 who was the principal at the time, became a
scapegoat. I think he did everything he possibly could to make things go as smoothly as they
could, but it just was not going to happen at that high school. And the teachers, they became
policemen. A lot of their time was spent, you know, “Whew, we made it through a day. No
one got into a fight, no one got hurt today.”
OWENS: Would you say that the dynamic of the school changed drastically because of this?
Or the make-up, rather?
FEENEY: Well the make-up—the allegiance of the high school changed. Within two or three
years of this you would ask a buddy on the street, “Are you going to the football game?” And
they look at you like you’re a nut. The Thanksgiving game, which was Southie-Eastie for a
hundred years, and it was just like, “Why would I go there? I have no allegiance to that school
anymore.”
5
William J. “Doc” Reid (1912-2007) was headmaster of South Boston High School from 1965 to 1975. OH-053 in
the Moakley Oral History Project is an interview with Mr. Reid.
Page 12 of 18
�OH-048 Transcript
OWENS: Did any of her [Feeney’s wife’s] classmates or any of her friends leave the school as
a result of—
FEENEY: Some. A couple of family friends moved to Plymouth because of busing. Instead
of graduating with their class, they had a lot of younger siblings, so their parents just sold their
home and moved. (pauses) Actually, on their—if you look—that class is known as the last
white class of Southie High, and if you look on their class mug that they got at the prom, the
initials are on it “TLWC”.
OWENS: Really?
FEENEY: That they sort of snuck in within the design of the—on the mug is the design of the
national monument, the [Dorchester] Heights, and if you look closely enough, you can see the
kid who drew it up. That was sort of their last hurrah to the school.
OWENS: Before we just close up do you have any stories, or anything that you would want to
add that we didn’t necessarily cover?
FEENEY: Just some of the protests that I attended. I was there—the infamous photograph of
the black gentleman with the flag in the face by Joey Rakes, who I knew quite well. The black
man was totally in the wrong place at the wrong time. Totally innocent to anything, but
busing—that was the case where it brought out the worst in somebody.6
I was actually, if the photograph was reversed, I’m standing—it just so happens, I’m standing
behind the photographer. That was a protest that we got out of—we just got out of city hall, and
we were just all, again, kind of raising hell because we were young teenagers, or old teenagers.
And this poor guy was coming to work. He did nothing wrong, it was just one of the ugly
incidents that happened—that was brought on. Before busing, the word “nigger” was never
used in my house, it was considered a swear. And after a while it—busing brought out a lot of
6
Mr. Feeney is referring to a Pulitzer Prize-winning photograph taken by Stanley J. Forman which depicts Joseph
Rakes, who is white, lunging at Ted Landsmark, who is black, with the staff of an American flag. The photograph
Page 13 of 18
�OH-048 Transcript
hatred. I think everybody is a little prejudice, no matter what. You are not born racist. This
brought out from prejudice to racism to hatred, for no reason.
I think the way they brought on the whole busing aspect was wrong. They started with high
schools; it was stupid. If you are going to do it, start with—I can’t even see starting with
babies, but say if you have a neighborhood school one, two, three, “Starting out this year grade
four is going to be bused somewhere.” I don’t think people would have harmed a child, but
when you get seniors and juniors, some of them twenty, twenty-one years old, totally fixed in
their way, you’re going to have problems. As bad as the decision was, it was implemented
wrong. If they had started with the younger children, who didn’t have the hatred built into them
yet, and just say, Okay, this is how it is going to be, you are going to Charlestown, you are
going to go here.
I think things would have gone a little bit more smoothly then—1974, they took the junior high
class out of Southie High and said, “You’re going to Roxbury,” and vice versa. You’re
bringing in eighteen, twenty year old kids, and it’s not going to work. Again, we felt a lot of
politicians turned their back on us. There are a lot of politicians who endorsed this, and yet
every one of their kids goes to a private school. It wasn’t a case where they were in the same
boat as us. They’re telling us what to do, and yet in the same token, not one of them is doing it
to themselves.
OWENS: How did your sisters—how were they affected by this?
FEENEY: My sister wasn’t because she went to parochial school all the way through. She
was already going to parochial school. I don’t know why my brother and I were told to go—
we were publics. But my sister from day one went to parochial, so she just continued on
through.
OWENS: What schools did she attend?
was taken in April of 1976 at an anti-busing protest on City Hall Plaza.
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�OH-048 Transcript
FEENEY: Gate of Heaven, which was my parish. They had a grammar school, [grades] one to
eight, and then she went to Monsignor Ryan which is in Dorchester, which just recently closed.
One of the high schools that the Catholic schools just closed in the past couple of years. And
my brother missed it because he graduated in 1970, so he was already gone before it happened.
OWENS: Just to go back quickly, this is just one thing that I forgot to ask you. Now even
though your school was not affected directly by the change of the Garrity decision, how was
your first day? Was it a tense day?
FEENEY: No, it was not at all. We got along fine. I got along fine when I went in there in
1972 and never had a problem when I left through 1976. I attended, more so my junior and
senior year, which was when Boston was having its problem—because I am getting out of the
school, I started to attend more—more high school—more of my own school sporting events:
basketball, hockey, football. We went and cheered on the team that (inaudible) the old Boston
Garden when they played basketball. I would go to White’s stadium, in the middle of Franklin
Park, to attend football games.
My school, knock on wood, everybody knew I was from South Boston. If somebody asks me
today, “Where are you from?” I’ll still say, “I am from South Boston, I just happen to live in
Marlborough.” But, I went to Boston Tech everyday with my “stop busing” buttons on. I
think—I like to think they might have respected my opinion. But I never went out looking for
trouble, this is just the way that I felt, and this school is by choice, this school works. So we
never had the trouble at Boston Tech.
OWENS: Just one final question, unless you have anything else to add, and that was—looking
back thirty years later after the decision, could you just describe its effects, not only just in
South Boston, but on the city in general?
FEENEY: It might have made the city more—I would say the city is no longer a city of
neighborhoods. It’s more generic than it once was, and that could be good or bad. There were
no problems before busing, when it was strictly neighborhoods. I think looking back, the
Page 15 of 18
�OH-048 Transcript
school system, in my opinion, has never recovered. The SAT scores continually go down in the
city of Boston. The money that they spend on busing, they can easily put towards the schools.
More and more of Boston now is racially balanced—tremendously much more than it was
before. So if South Boston is somewhat mixed, racially mixed, let the kids go to the
neighborhood schools, and put that money into the school system. They’re still stubborn in that
aspect. They’re still trying to get something to work that doesn’t work anymore. The money is
wasted; they could put the money towards much more better things than having the buses idle.
OWENS: Do you have anything else to add?
FEENEY: No, I think that’s about it.
OWENS: Just one other thing that I wanted to mention that I forgot was ROAR. Can you tell
me a little bit more about ROAR, what it was?
FEENEY: That was—I think it was sort of leadership. All of the groups were splintered and
this was sort of one banner, if you will, to get under. They might have published papers; they
would come out and tell you when the next rally was. It was an informational thing. They sort
of brought all of the splinter groups together. It wasn’t military by any means; it was just a way
of notifying people what was going on. Ray Flynn,7 I think, belonged to it at one time.
Billy Bulger8 was a great speaker for the city. Jimmy Kelly9 made a name for himself, and he is
still on the School Committee. So a lot of politicians made names—Louise Day Hicks,10 I
7
Raymond L. Flynn (1939- ), a Democrat, represented South Boston in the Massachusetts State House of
Representatives from 1971 to 1979. He later served on the Boston City Council from 1978 to 1974, then as mayor
of Boston from 1984 to 1993.
8
William M. Bulger (1934- ), a Democrat, served in the Massachusetts House of Representatives from 1962 to
1970, in the Massachusetts State Senate from 1970 to 1978 and as State Senate President from 1978 to 1996. OH014 in the Moakley Oral History Project is an interview with Mr. Bulger.
9
James M. Kelly (1940-2007), a lifelong South Boston resident, represented South Boston in the Boston City
Council from 1983 until his death in January of 2007. He served as city council president from 1994 to 2001. OH0187 in the Moakley Oral History Project is an interview with Councilor Kelly.
10
Louise Day Hicks (1916-2003), a Democrat, represented Massachusetts Ninth Congressional District in the U.S.
House of Representatives from 1971 to 1973.
Page 16 of 18
�OH-048 Transcript
think, was a very good fighter for South Boston, but she got the wrong reputation. Same way, I
think, Elma Lewis11 was a great fighter for her community, but wasn’t perceived well from the
other community. I think they both had the greatest hopes for their group, the people they were
supporting and speaking for, but if you weren’t within that group on either side they got a shaft
on either way. It’s the Irish in me coming out, I know, but I say politicians who turned their
back on us—people in South Boston really thought Ted Kennedy12 turned his back on us. He is
another one whose kids have never gone to a public school ever, and he was one of these ones
[who said], “This is gonna happen.” We grew up in houses—we had a picture of JFK on one
wall and the pope on the other. So I think we expect to get a lot more help from him, and we
never got it.
OWENS: You mentioned that some of the demonstrations would pick a politician of the day,
and then they would go and they would—?
FEENEY: We would protest out in front of their home. It was vocal. I don’t ever remember
stoning their homes. It was—get out there. Again, you have the media come out. We went to
Garrity’s house. I know we went to his house on a couple occasions. We used to go to
downtown Boston too. I might have the street wrong—I am tempted to say Mount Vernon
Street—where Kevin White lived. I know where the house is now, because I still kind of work
in that area. We would go to his house and protest. If anyone was on the school committee at
the time, we might go to their house and try to get them to vote, even though their hands were
tied. Maybe looking back now, I realize that more so. That their hands were tied more than we
thought they were. But we would go to their homes and again, I don’t ever remember going to
houses to stone them. You know, it’s just to scream, let steam off. You felt, “No one is
listening to me; I’m going to have to go to you instead.”
OWENS: Well, I think that’s it on my end. If you don’t have anything else to add.
11
Elma Lewis (1921- 2004), the daughter of West Indian immigrants, was a native of Boston’s Roxbury
neighborhood who devoted her life to supporting the arts in Boston’s black community.
12
Edward Moore “Ted” Kennedy (1932- ), a Democrat, has represented Massachusetts in the United States Senate
since 1962.
Page 17 of 18
�OH-048 Transcript
FEENEY: I don’t know if you want to put down—I am looking at this [points to recorder] and
there is dead air.
OWENS: No, that’s fine.
END OF INTERVIEW
Page 18 of 18
�OH-048 Attachments
Attachment A
Photograph of “Stop Forced Busing” ROAR pin (DI-0304); part of the
John Joseph Moakley Papers Collection (MS100/09.03-378)
�
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers, 1926-2001
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Boston (Mass.)<br />Legislators--United States <br />Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001<br /> South Boston (Boston, Mass.)<br />Legislators. Massachusetts<br />Politicians--Massachusetts
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Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001.
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers (MS 100), 1926-2001. View the <a title="John Joseph Moakley Papers" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/MoakleyArchive/ms100.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> at the Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.
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<div>
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<p>Moakley Papers: Moakley Oral History Project<br />Enemies of War Collection (MS 104)<br /> Jamaica Plain Committee on Central America Collection (MS 103)</p>
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<div> </div>
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300.7 cubic feet (521 boxes)
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MS 100
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Boston, Mass.
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Owens, Michael
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Feeney, James P.
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Suffolk University Law School, Boston, Mass.
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31:04
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Mr. Feeney’s background p. 3 (00:50)
Reactions to the Garrity decision p. 4 (02:48)
Anti-busing activism and media coverage p. 6 (07:20)
Impact of the decision on South Boston p. 8 (15:30)
Reflections on his anti-busing activism, his family’s experiences, and local politicians p. 13 (21:28)
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Transcript of Oral History Interview of James P. Feeney
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Boston (Mass.)
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
South Boston (Boston, Mass.)
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In this interview, James P. Feeney, who was born and raised in South Boston, Massachusetts, reflects on the impact of Judge W. Arthur Garrity's 1974 decision in the case of Morgan v. Hennigan, which required some students to be bused between Boston neighborhoods with the goal of creating racial balance in the public schools. He discusses South Boston’s reaction to the decision; the media coverage of the aftermath of the decision; various protests and demonstrations that took place; and how the dynamics of South Boston changed during that time period.
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
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Moakley Oral History Project
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
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February 16 ,2005
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Kintz, Laura
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Copyright Suffolk University. This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute. Prior permission is required for any commercial use.
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OH-048
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/15912/archive/files/459ac6b78739342f4a1394d54fbf396b.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=fo0hFBiuUzVM7T02sFx4e4ohMkLDcr26pn6CV8CSk0lmb%7Eyo%7ESyIWaRcBiNzXytaHAjVSyv57hDyQERS3jDP5sLXnUq4c8j6YS%7Ect3mq5NqaIsaE9fioHmcXLxP1EVxwPlTHkn0S4-5aX0NWnuc02dAC8kQWtPzqE9Vi20pu9UZB0OTLvguG9L8q0v5asTy4cjQ9MqF4qvJonMghLGQ2O4YnN0NdmQw1nG0-LFo1xNyvOBszrlxz1Fgt%7EfJ97kuIhwxmaAJviBCx-lT3u5mRRxJqYcK-maQ%7E8cUocDIVVBLpIiwuPY3HMMH-N3UsPlfqwMqToMM9GlDDHDyQrj2e%7Eg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
a156effc430fbe82966c9038887ee3a9
PDF Text
Text
Oral History Interview of James Collins (OH-052)
Moakley Archive and Institute
www.suffolk.edu/moakley
archives@suffolk.edu
Oral History Interview of James Collins
Interview Date: March 30, 2005
Interviewed by: Matthew Gordon, Suffolk University student from History 364: Oral History
Citation: Collins, James. Interviewed by Matthew Gordon. John Joseph Moakley Oral History
Project OH-052. 30 March 2005. Transcript and audio available. John Joseph Moakley Archive
and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, MA.
Copyright Information: Copyright ©2005, Suffolk University.
Interview Summary
Mr. James Collins reflects on his experiences following the 1974 Garrity decision, which
required some students to be bused between Boston neighborhoods with the intention of creating
racial balance in the public schools. He discusses his upbringing in Boston’s Charlestown
neighborhood; his family’s educational experiences in Boston; reactions to the Garrity decision
in Charlestown; and the impact that the decision has had on education and neighborhood
dynamics in Boston.
Subject Headings
Busing for school integration
Charlestown (Boston, Mass.)
Collins, James, 1951Morgan v. Hennigan (379 F. Supp. 410)
Table of Contents
Mr. Collins’s background and education
p. 3 (00:05)
Reactions to and impact of the Garrity decision in Charlestown
p. 6 (08:03)
Violence and media coverage
p. 10 (21:40)
Mr. Collins’s experiences in politics
p. 12 (28:27)
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
1
�Reflections on the decision and the evolution of Charlestown
Interview transcript begins on next page
Page 2 of 16
p. 14 (34:22)
�OH-052 Transcript
Interview Transcript
MATTHEW GORDON: —March 30, 2005, my name is Matthew Gordon and I will be
interviewing James Collins. Okay, Mr. Collins, can you tell me a little about yourself? Where
you grew up, basically, the year, the neighborhood, things like that?
JAMES COLLINS: Yes. Jim Collins, I grew up in Charlestown, lived at One Laurel Street
which is adjacent to and within several—few feet of Charlestown High School. I was born in
1951, which means I am a little over fifty-four. I am the oldest of nine children. My father was
a school teacher, my mother was a homemaker, a graduate of Charlestown High School herself.
My father a graduate of Boston College High School in 1938 and Boston College in 1942 and
was a Boston schoolteacher until he died in 1976.
GORDON: Do you have brothers and sisters?
COLLINS: I am the oldest of nine. Five sisters and three brothers, ranging in age from fiftyfour currently now to thirty-seven.
GORDON: What was it like living in Charlestown back—growing up in the fifties and sixties?
Explain the kind of community.
COLLINS: Charlestown was always considered a blue collar, working class community. The
waterfront was pretty active, a lot of people had jobs in the naval shipyard [Charlestown Navy
Yard] and waterfront, many longshoremen, as well as people working for the transit authority,
the Edison gas company, telephone company, pretty much all workday people. A handful of
professional types, a few lawyers, teachers and others, but by-and-large blue collar.
GORDON: And your neighborhood, was it a typical neighborhood? Did you play—have a lot
of activities playing sports outside with friends and things like that?
Page 3 of 16
�OH-052 Transcript
COLLINS: Yes. Believe it or not, before it was restricted, the Bunker Hill Monument grounds
was considered our backyard. We played all kinds of sports on the sides of hills and the tops of
the hills. But there were several basketball courts, football fields. In fact, one of the fields—
before they built hockey rinks, they used to flood the ball fields and we used to skate on them.
GORDON: Did you go to public school in Charlestown? Elementary, middle school, high
school?
COLLINS: No, all of our family—in the grammar school, the elementary school through eighth
grade—went to the parochial school, St. Mary’s. Some of us went on to Catholic high school.
Brother and sister, Catholic high school. I had a couple at Boston Latin School and a couple of
them went to Charlestown High.
GORDON: Now, would you say that the majority of people living in Charlestown were
Catholic, and went to Catholic school? Or a lot of people you associated with?
COLLINS: A lot of people we associated with were Catholic and went to the Catholic school; it
was a pretty good mix though. Those of us whose families could afford to send them and were
able to pass the exam, went to the parochial high schools, which there were plenty of at the time.
Some of them in Cambridge, some of them in Roxbury at Cathedral High School, St. Mary’s of
Cambridge, Matignon, B.C. High [Boston College High School], Malden Catholic, and others.
And the balance of our friends went to Charlestown High.
GORDON: Now, your high school experience, can you sum it up in maybe a few seconds?
COLLINS: B.C. High tended to be a pretty nurturing environment. The Jesuits, who were the
priests who ran the school, would be considered a little more liberal in terms of their upbringing
and their teachings. Although they were community activist types that encouraged community
activities and reaching out, extending oneself to others. In fact, “Men for others” is the motto of
B.C. High.
Page 4 of 16
�OH-052 Transcript
GORDON: Were you involved in any after school activities, sports, student government, things
of that nature?
COLLINS: I played football and was on the swim team. I was active in the sodality1 and a
couple of the English and writing courses.
GORDON: Upon graduating from Boston College High School, did you go onto college or the
military?
COLLINS: Well, I did one year at Boston State College,2 then left and served in the Coast
Guard Reserve for a year in 1969, then went back to Boston State College, where I received my
undergraduate degree there, and then went on to get a graduate degree at Boston University.
GORDON: Boston State College, how would you sum up your years there? Was there a lot of
anti-war sentiment, or pro? How would you describe that?
COLLINS: The late sixties, early seventies was marked, as many schools in the country were,
by a reaction to the war in Vietnam, and there were tensions that began to develop, not only with
the war, but racially. Boston State College had a large number of minority students and they
actually organized their own student union at the time, so there was some of what I guess at the
time was not unusual activity on the campus of the local state school, which was a commuter
school, a school where people from all over the city would go as well as probably working at
night, so it was not a very suburban style.
GORDON: Boston State was primarily a working class type school?
COLLINS: It was a commuter school, meaning everyone who went there, obviously got there
by the train or car and trolley. As I said most everyone had a job as well as went to school.
1
2
Within the context of the Catholic Church, a sodality is a lay society for religious and charitable purposes.
Boston State College was a public university that merged with the University of Massachusetts at Boston in 1982.
Page 5 of 16
�OH-052 Transcript
GORDON: After graduating from Boston State, you said went to Boston University and you
got your master’s degree; from there what did you do after receiving your master’s degree? Did
you go right into the workforce?
COLLINS: During that period, I actually was involved—I simultaneously worked at a
community school program that was run by the City of Boston, which had me involved in after
school programming for the Charlestown community, but I also managed to be involved in a
political campaign. I was the campaign manager for Mayor Kevin White in my district, so I was
working, going to school and politicking at the same time.
GORDON: I think we might jump back into the politics avenue in a second. In 1974 the Garrity
ruling came down.3 I just wanted to ask you, how it affected you personally, living in
Charlestown and being a member of that community.
COLLINS: Having a father who was a school teacher who wanted to see the school system
thrive, I had one influence on me. The other influence on me was obviously my education, the
instruction at B.C. High, because I was very active in interacting in the black community through
the sodality at B.C. High, so I had generally a tolerance for what was going on, and what the
objective was with busing. I disagreed with forced busing as a root for integrating the schools
but I realized that there was a lot of foot-dragging in efforts to desegregate, and more than its
direct effect on me, I saw its effect on my friends in the neighborhood. Some people had no
options but to send their kids to public schools and they felt that forced busing not only drove
them out of their community and into some other inferior schools, but it made their school
inferior because they were trying to deal with the management of discipline issues as opposed to
educational issues.
3
The Garrity ruling refers to the June 21, 1974, opinion filed by Judge Arthur W. Garrity in the case of Tallulah
Morgan et al. v. James Hennigan et al. (379 F. Supp. 410). Judge Garrity ruled that the Boston School Committee
had “intentionally brought about and maintained racial segregation” in the Boston Public Schools. When the school
committee did not submit a workable desegregation plan as the opinion had required, the court established a plan
that called for some students to be bused from their own neighborhoods to attend schools in other neighborhoods,
with the goal of creating racial balance in the Boston Public Schools. (See
http://www.lib.umb.edu/archives/garrity2.html)
Page 6 of 16
�OH-052 Transcript
GORDON: Excellent. Now, you were personally involved and your family obviously was very
involved, but back to your father, he was a teacher at the time in the Boston Public Schools?
What school was he at?
COLLINS: At the time during that period, he was at the Ohrenberger, which was an elementary
school in West Roxbury. It was a mixed school, and prior to that, he was at the Emily Fifield
and the Logue, both of which were in the black community. My father was, as I said, actually
the assistant principal and had to deal with a lot of the disciplinary issues in these schools.
GORDON: Was it something where one day people came in and told your dad, This is what’s
going down, this is what is happening, or was it something that he kind of knew was coming?
COLLINS: I think he knew at the time. The issue was obviously much debated in the press and
at the city council level and the school committee level. There were lawsuits all over the place,
but I think inevitably he knew that the time had come for the schools to be integrated, and I think
he was somewhat prepared for it, but it wasn’t until Judge Garrity issued his order that it became
a reality, and the rest, as they say, is history.
GORDON: With that being said, how was the news broken to you? Your father was obviously
a teacher in the Boston Public Schools system. Did you have prior knowledge of this happening,
or was it kind of out of the blue?
COLLINS: To be honest, I don’t recall how it came about, except that all I knew was here was
a ground swell of anti-busing sentiment being built up, and being involved in the after-school
program at the Kent Community School, where a lot of these folks sent their kids after school,
we knew that there were major efforts, anti-busing efforts, underway. It was more from the antibusing side that I realized—and the organizing of the opposition that I really became aware of it.
It wasn’t because of the school committee or school department had any tip off that we could
deal with. We just all knew that this was going to be a really volatile time.
Page 7 of 16
�OH-052 Transcript
GORDON: After the decision came down, obviously the dynamics of Charlestown changed,
with the, I don’t want to say violence, but there was an opposition to this happening. Can you
elaborate a little bit more on the reaction of Charlestown?
COLLINS: They formed a couple of organizations. One was called ROAR, and it was a
citywide organization called—which stood for Restore Our [Alienated] Rights. R-O-A-R. They
had a citywide organization. Then they had another organization more locally called Powder
Keg, which you can read into that any way you want. It was manned by, or it was staffed by—
its volunteers were, I would say, thirty-something and forty-something parents, blue collar.
Mostly women, for a matter of fact. A few rather unsavory type characters, but mostly people
who felt as though their neighborhood was being dumped on and that they were powerless to do
anything about it except for this organization. As I say, most of them were women, mothers,
some single mothers, but mothers who really felt that they didn’t want their kids on the bus, they
wanted to be able to walk down the street and pick up their son or daughter at school and bring
them back home and keep an eye on them.
So there was an intimidation factor because if you weren’t with them, then you had to be one of
those God-awful liberals, and to the extent that I had some liberal kind of leaning, it was
nowhere near—it was liberal in the sense that I was tolerant of other people. In this case I sided
with the anti-busing crowd because I realized it wasn’t about the fact that they hated blacks, it
was about they wanted some control over their school system and they were not going to just roll
over and let someone dictate to them what to do.
GORDON: Right. Excellent. With you being the oldest of nine, did you have any siblings that
were bused?
COLLINS: Yes, one of my younger sisters, in particular. One of my brothers was in grammar
school up until the sixth grade, but he was lucky enough to get into Boston Latin School. So he
went to Boston Latin School. But [my] younger sister was at the Blackstone [Elementary
School], which was over in the South End. She was bused, and she was intimidated by some
black kids at school on more than one occasion, and despite the fact that my father wanted to see
Page 8 of 16
�OH-052 Transcript
this through and to see whether or not it could work, he finally had to lift my sister from the city
schools and eventually she went to a parochial school out of the city.
GORDON: That must have been an extremely difficult position for yourself, your father, your
family, your dad being a teacher, being caught in the middle of this whole anti-busing thing, but
obviously seeing that there needed to be a change, some change, in the way people were taught
and bused around the city of Boston. Do you, offhand, remember the first day students were
bused to Charlestown, in and out of Charlestown, and any reactions to that?
COLLINS: It’s funny, I happened to have not been in—this is an interesting side note, because
I recall being in Grand Junction, Colorado, in September of 1974 because I was on a trip
sponsored by Outward Bound, which is the survival school program. I was in Colorado with
another friend of mine, in Grand Junction, Colorado, waiting to be picked up by a bus to go to
the river where we were going to be spending time on. The front page of the newspaper in
Grand Junction had a picture just outside my house; it was at the Bunker Hill Monument
adjacent—the Bunker Hill Monument and the high school, taken from my street with people
with their mouths wide open, their fists clenched and the title, “Fear and Terror in Charlestown,”
in Boston, and there it was. So the first day of busing in Charlestown I happened to be in Grand
Junction, Colorado, soon to call home and find out what was going on and to find out that the
FBI and other police were sitting—just literally lined up in front of my doorway as all this was
going on. So I was a long distance at that time, but certainly by the time I got back it was still
going on.
GORDON: As the first few days and first weeks or months kind of evolved, do you think
anyone was really learning at school? Do you think students were just basically surviving? Do
you think anything was really being—
COLLINS: No, I think that entire year was a wash. For anyone—anyone who was promoted
that year, they were promoted under hazardous duty promotions because I don’t believe any
learning took place other than about politics, about protesting, a lot about hate, a lot about what
Page 9 of 16
�OH-052 Transcript
people can do or not do when their lives are threatened. It was more of a social education and
cultural education than there was any real learning going on.
GORDON: I was wondering if you had any information about—maybe your father might have
known whether a lot of teachers left or students were pulled midyear because there wasn’t—
COLLINS: Yes, my information is—at this point (inaudible) I know I have some files that I was
privy to because a year ago one of my own children wrote an essay for school on the busing
crisis, so we pulled up some old files and I venture to say that attendance dropped dramatically,
as much as 40 percent citywide as a result of that. That number sticks in my head. The number
of teachers—a number of teachers—I don’t think it was vast, though—a number of teachers
retired or took a lot of sick days that year, but I think by and large the teachers hung in there and
stayed as long as they possibly could through the crisis.
GORDON: It must have been an extremely difficult position for a teacher to be in, especially if
you maybe were one of the people—you lived in one of the communities and maybe you had a
son or daughter being bused and you were completely opposed to the whole situation but you
were—you had to be professional enough to be teaching. I’m sure that situation kind of came
up.
COLLINS: Absolutely. It was a very tough position for a teacher to be in. Their personal—
they had to put their personal feelings aside, A, to protect their job and B, to keep the system
from collapsing, and I think that was very difficult. And I know people ended up moving out.
There was white flight—a considerable amount of white flight that year and the years ensuing.
GORDON: Now getting a little more serious, did you ever witness any violence towards
parents, students, teachers, etcetera, during this time?
COLLINS: Yes, I remember marching with the anti-busing families up Bunker Hill Street in
Charlestown in protest, and I recall—at the time it was the police mobile units, the motorcycle
units—a couple of motorcycle cops who, strangely, were antagonistic toward the crowd,
Page 10 of 16
�OH-052 Transcript
insulting them, rustling them up, and had a lot of derogatory things to say about—to the people
protesting, much to my surprise. So I did witness some of that. The protests that I witnessed
were all pretty much inside the community so there wasn’t a lot of external antagonism. But that
was during—that was probably in 1975. I remember because I was working at the Kent
Community School, and this was one of those protest rallies that were designed to focus on the
neighborhood school issue—bring back the neighborhood schools. That was one particular
incident—I remember a couple of arrests that were out of the ordinary. I think it was a message
that we thought the city was trying to send, and unfortunately the police that they sent out didn’t
have the best demeanor and didn’t handle it very well, from what I recall.
GORDON: Now, I’m just curious to find out, what is your opinion of the media and how their
role was in—not only in making communities like Charlestown look, but also like South Boston?
I know people in South Boston are still angry at the Boston Globe for the way they handled the
whole situation.
COLLINS: I do have an opinion on that. I think the media saw a way to sell newspapers. They
wanted this protest to prop up—to be propped up on a daily basis to sell newspapers. The
suburban communities who encouraged and castigated the city of Boston communities, South
Boston and Charlestown in particular, none of them were at all interested in integrating their own
communities; the finger-pointing went to Boston. “It’s your mess, you guys go deal with it.” So
they thought that folks—that the people of Charlestown and South Boston were Neanderthals
and were bigots for not integrating when in their very own backyard they engaged in snob
zoning.
More importantly, I thought—I thought that the Globe and the [Boston] Herald saw this, and this
saga continuing, as humorous reading for people outside. They thought it was great to tell these
stories so that people would buy the papers and find out what else was going on in those
“redneck” communities. I think the Globe took advantage of the communities, and I will say one
more time, in the back end of it, that the very people and the very institutions that castigated the
South Boston and Charlestown community for trying to maintain and preserve its neighborhood
are the same institutions and individuals who are now purchasing homes in those neighborhoods
Page 11 of 16
�OH-052 Transcript
that have been preserved. So they are reaping the rewards of not the anti—not the minority bias
but just the willingness, the desire and the attention of the community of Charlestown and South
Boston to maintain its identity. Now that it continues to be safe—both of these communities are
safe neighborhoods, for whatever reason, and the patrons of the Globe, the workers of the Globe
and others who shook their fingers at Charlestown and South Boston communities are the very
people who are buying, owning, and converting properties into multi-million dollar profits.
GORDON: It seems, just looking back on this, that a lot of people looking from the outside
looked at this situation as, these people in Charlestown and South Boston are racists, they don’t
want these people coming into their community, where I think people didn’t understand that it
was more about being told that my student—my child has to go here, or my child has to go there,
when there’s school right down the street. Do you feel that was the main issue in Charlestown?
COLLINS: Absolutely. I think—let me say this. Of course there are some people who are
bigots, and this was sport to them, but for the majority of the people they did not want to be told
where to send their kids. They paid taxes, they spent their whole lives in the comfort of their
community and being in a place where there is a built-in, almost, protection for one another,
people watch out for one another’s kids because there were so many other things to distract a
family. It’s a sense of place that they were being robbed of and there were those in the black
community that felt the same way. Improve the quality of education in the school system, don’t
move people around from a good school—a so-called good school to a not-so-good school and
from a not-so-good school to a good school. If it was the quality of education that was the issue,
it didn’t matter what neighborhood it was in. That was the position people had.
GORDON: Now, I know we talked about this a little bit in the beginning, but you were involved
with some politicians—you named Kevin White.4 Can you just briefly talk a little bit about your
association with him during this time of desegregation?
COLLINS: I’ll try to incorporate that as well as my own experience in politics because I served
an elected office myself. In 1975—1974 there was a state representative election; the sitting
4
Kevin White (1929- ) served as mayor of Boston from 1968 to 1984.
Page 12 of 16
�OH-052 Transcript
representative retired, and a number of Charlestown people ran for office, and that included part
of East Boston. So half a dozen former Kevin White supporters ran against each other and it
ended up being not a pleasant campaign. So I was tapped in 1975 to try to manage all these
conflicting personalities to get Kevin White reelected, and I managed to do that.
During that period of time—I think I mentioned this to you off the record, but now I’ll put it on
the record—in 1975, I was part of a group of people who brokered an agreement or truce with
the anti-busing crowd. I remember doing it on a Sunday morning, having people from Powder
Keg and R.O.A.R., some of the local—some of the politicians, Kevin White, some of his aides
and others in the community. We basically sat down and asked them what they needed. There
was an agreement on recreational activities, on some educational activities, on job opportunities,
and in return, Kevin White was able to settle down the anti-busing negative antagonism toward
his campaign. In fact that meeting produced the slogan which Powder Keg used to develop the
campaign against Joe Timilty:5 “Better the devil you know than the devil you don’t know.” We
convinced them that Joe Timilty was likely no different than Kevin White would be. Kevin
White was someone you knew and someone who would come to the table and negotiate some
kind of truce. We were able to keep a lid on the anti-busing crowd through that campaign. So
this was—at the time I was twenty-four years old, right in the thick of something that became
historic and I didn’t even know it.
Then later on the following year in addition to working for the city, I started a small business and
with my partners we agreed to house the Tip O’Neill6 for Congress campaign out of our offices,
and this was the year that when he was elected he was going to become the speaker—Speaker of
the House in Congress—but he had an anti-busing candidate against him and he was very
concerned, so we mounted on a big campaign and I recall our plate glass windows being broken
because we were supporters of “that liberal Tip O’Neill.” So that was my second experience in
politics.
5
Joseph F. Timilty (1938- ) served in the Massachusetts State Senate and was defeated by Kevin White in Boston
mayoral elections in both 1975 and 1979.
6
Thomas P. “Tip” O’Neill (1912-1994), a Democrat, represented Massachusetts’ Eleventh and, after redistricting,
Eighth Congressional Districts in the United States House of Representatives from 1953 to 1987. He served as
Speaker of the House of Representatives from 1977 to 1987.
Page 13 of 16
�OH-052 Transcript
My third experience in politics took place in 1977. I had just been elected because Dennis
Kerney, the state rep, was appointed sheriff, and I won the special election. And I recall being in
Kevin White’s office when a group of students from Valley Forge, Pennsylvania—black
students—in a yellow bus toured the Bunker Hill Monument only to be attacked by a group of
kids with hockey sticks. It was front page news, all over the state and all over the country. I
happened to have been with the mayor and walked with him—drove with him to Mass General
Hospital and the very next morning my face is on the front page of the Herald American and the
Globe denouncing what took place. So it was—I took a lot of heat. I took a lot of positive heat
and negative heat. Positive for being there and standing up for the community and negative heat
because I looked like I was a “bleeding heart” and why was I standing there. It was a mixed bag,
but by and large, the people in the community were happy I was there standing up for the
community letting people know we weren’t all hoodlums.
GORDON: Did you stay active within the political world, or did you kind of keep—kind of
move into the private sector but still keep your ear to the grindstone?
COLLINS: Yeah, I’ve been active in politics all my life. It’s something you can’t avoid. I stay
active in government affairs, if you will, I participate in multicultural activities because I believe
that the society we live in is multicultural and global, and I want to be informed and I encourage
my kids to be the same way. But I did join the private sector and I try to be as active as I can and
learn the lessons of the seventies and bring those lessons into the twenty-first century.
GORDON: How would—kind of wrapping up here—how would you say Charlestown has
changed or evolved in the thirty-year period since the busing—the Garrity decision, I should
say—would you say it’s kind of the same, or it’s different, or—?
COLLINS: I would say it is a lot different. There is a fraction of the middle-income type;
lower-middle, upwardly mobile types are pretty much gone. They’ve left the community and
moved to the suburban areas, and what you have now are the fairly well-off, the young urban
professionals, the empty-nesters, and those people who appreciate the architecture, the housing
Page 14 of 16
�OH-052 Transcript
and the convenience to the city—of Charlestown to the city. Then you have the lower middle
class to poor who are there. So you have the extremes. You lost basically, in my opinion, the
core of the community. They’ve moved on. There are people who are trying to replace it and try
to give a semblance of community to the neighborhood but it is not the same as it used to be.
Catholic churches are closing, the public schools are changing. The Charlestown High School
basketball team is all black, and they are a very good basketball team. But basically people don’t
send their kids to public schools anymore; there aren’t enough kids going, and there aren’t
enough kids going to the parochial schools because they moved out.
South Boston, because it is much bigger than Charlestown, is going to take a longer time, but the
same thing is happening, especially with the waterfront expansion. The people who are living
there, as much as they’d love to stay there, they can’t afford it, and those who like the diversity
don’t want to deal with the new issues that are now creeping in there are heroine use, drug use,
and other substance abuse. And so the cycle continues. Neither Charlestown nor South Boston
are immune from things that suburban neighborhoods are experiencing.
GORDON: Okay, last question. Is there anything else you’d like to talk about—your
experiences, busing, or anything about Charlestown?
COLLINS: The main point I’d like to convey is that the people of Charlestown had very little
resources with which to express their feelings. They couldn’t hire lawyers so they protested the
only way they knew how. They were trying to preserve their rights and I think that they were
right to do that. There were, as I said, a handful of hoodlums who took matters into their own
hands, and those were the problems that the press focused on. The majority of the people there
were sincere, they were not bigots, and they saw their community being torn apart and their
control over their own future being taken away. They knew instinctively that the end result was
not going to be a better education. They knew instinctively that the end result was not going to
be a better community. They knew instinctively there was going to be turmoil for much of their
adult lives and much of their children’s lives, and for whose purpose? Even today, there are a
handful that claim that the educational system is better. I think that more—the majority of
people say it is no better than it was before busing.
Page 15 of 16
�OH-052 Transcript
So busing as a means to integrate, all they did was make it instead of a majority white school
system, now it’s a majority black school system. So they didn’t get down to the real issues—the
real core issues: the housing and jobs, cultural differences. And just because there are cultural
differences, doesn’t mean people are bigoted. I think that was the flaw; they tried to come up
with a political solution to something that was more deep-rooted than that. So they decided to
mess up the lives of a generation of people for some future expectation that I don’t think has
been met.
GORDON: Okay, thank you.
END OF INTERVIEW
Page 16 of 16
�
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers, 1926-2001
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Boston (Mass.)<br />Legislators--United States <br />Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001<br /> South Boston (Boston, Mass.)<br />Legislators. Massachusetts<br />Politicians--Massachusetts
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The paper of Congressman John Joseph Moakley are housed at the Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.<br /><br />The sample of items from the Moakley papers exhibited on this site are used courtesy of the Moakley Archive and Institute. The full collection documents Moakley’s early life, his World War II service, his terms in the Massachusetts House of Representatives and Senate, and his service in Congress. The majority of the collection covers Moakley’s congressional career from 1973 until 2001. A <a title="Moakley papers" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/MoakleyArchive/ms100.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> the the collection is available online. <br /><br />The collection is open for research. Access to materials may be restricted based on their condition. Please consult the <a title="Moakley Archive" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/moakley" target="_blank">Moakley Archive and Institute</a>, Suffolk University for more information.
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers (MS 100), 1926-2001. View the <a title="John Joseph Moakley Papers" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/MoakleyArchive/ms100.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> at the Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.
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<div>
<div>
<p>Moakley Papers: Moakley Oral History Project<br />Enemies of War Collection (MS 104)<br /> Jamaica Plain Committee on Central America Collection (MS 103)</p>
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</div>
<div> </div>
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300.7 cubic feet (521 boxes)
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MS 100
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Boston, Mass.
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Gordon, Matthew
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Collins, James
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Unknown
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39:28
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Mr. Collins’s background and education p. 3 (00:05)
Reactions to and impact of the Garrity decision in Charlestown p. 6 (08:03)
Violence and media coverage p. 10 (21:40)
Mr. Collins’s experiences in politics p. 12 (28:27)
Reflections on the decision and the evolution of Charlestown p. 14 (34:22)
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Transcript of Oral History Interview of James Collins
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Boston (Mass.)
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Charlestown (Boston, Mass.)
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In this interview, James Collins, who grew up in Boston's Charlestown neighborhood in the 1950s and 1960s, reflects on the impact of Judge W. Arthur Garrity's 1974 decision in the case of Morgan v. Hennigan, which required some students to be bused between Boston neighborhoods with the goal of creating racial balance in the public schools. He discusses his upbringing in Charlestown; his family’s educational experiences in Boston; reactions to the Garrity decision in his neighborhood; and the impact that the decision has had on education and neighborhood dynamics in Boston.
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
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Moakley Oral History Project
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
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March 30, 2005
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Kintz, Laura
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OH-052
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/15912/archive/files/343a8449c898be670bfe85213fd297e4.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=guazs1L4HxMayI-B4sSTlZjzOSdH7GBbejchLEwvD9P06eZEeWAynH5jTfHNQYka8ssP5R0YIPFOz9TbC%7EZi0LEYE5gFxG1oDz68irNkaS44rsqVcZX1nJ9%7Eou9kzlhKdiIuwi3FKx4YApNqBCRbedzxzna%7E%7EJYuu7g7xL8uN8YG3xbp2-vykjva5qibg80pl0O92FcYhwaOQfq3qGMCoB9ZsvTDP0PKZZauSe-GiARmF11ZzGbM6FSZxLSkJg8LltesBqpfOm96fPy1fmYELENRDpwgZ7GqLBEPTeksSXO8LZ%7EVGqQihV2CNYRgWWUimN6lgB9WZvaImAruFpZ%7EaA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
c0016595ff3bf195aa8a0cd2bdda3900
PDF Text
Text
Oral History Interview of Henry Allen (OH-042)
Moakley Archive and Institute
www.suffolk.edu/moakley
archives@suffolk.edu
Oral History Interview of Henry L. Allen
Interview Date: February 28, 2005
Interviewed by: Rhea Ramjohn, Suffolk University Student enrolled in History 364: Oral
History
Citation: Allen, Henry L. Interviewed by Rhea Ramjohn. John Joseph Moakley Oral History
Project OH-042. 28 February 2005. Transcript and audio available. John Joseph Moakley
Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, MA.
Copyright Information: Copyright © 2005, Suffolk University
Interview Summary
Henry L. Allen, a lifelong resident of Boston, reflects on the Boston Public Schools and the city
itself during the time of the Garrity decision, which in 1974 required some students to be bused
between Boston neighborhoods with the intention of creating racial balance in the public schools.
In this interview, he discusses his extensive community work in support of school desegregation;
his and his family’s experiences with the Boston Public Schools; the racial dynamics of Boston
from the late 1960s to the early 1990s; and his opinions of the current state of Boston and its
schools.
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
1
�Oral History Interview of Henry Allen (OH-042)
Moakley Archive and Institute
www.suffolk.edu/moakley
archives@suffolk.edu
Subject Headings
Allen, Henry L.
Boston (Mass.)
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Magnet schools
Morgan v. Hennigan (379 F. Supp. 410)
Table of Contents
Mr. Allen’s background (education and family)
p. 3 (00:30)
Involvement in school desegregation efforts
p. 8 (11:43)
Community’s reaction to court’s decision
p. 14 (29:00)
His family’s school experiences
p. 15 (31:10)
Community dynamics
p. 19 (40:45)
Impact of media
p. 21 (46:47)
Reflections on his experiences
p. 22 (50:42)
Final thoughts on Boston’s current educational situation
p. 25 (58:05)
Interview transcript begins on next page
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
2
�OH-042 Transcript
This interview took place on February 28, 2005, in the John Joseph Moakley Law Library at
Suffolk University Law School.
Interview Transcript
RHEA RAMJOHN: Today’s date is Monday, February 28, 2005, the time is approximately
1:10 P.M., and I, Rhea Ramjohn, am here with Mr. Henry Allen at the Suffolk University Law
School conducting the interview about his experience during the 1970s with the desegregation
order from the federal court.
So what is your full name, Mr. Allen?
HENRY ALLEN: It’s Henry L. Allen.
RAMJOHN: Henry L. Allen. And where did you grow up?
ALLEN: I was born and raised in Roxbury.
RAMJOHN: And did you live there your whole life?
ALLEN: I’ve lived in Boston my whole life, and when I was fourteen, we moved from Roxbury
to Mattapan. Was in high school through the years that we lived in Mattapan, and I went to
college in Boston and my family lived in Brighton. So I’ve never left Boston. I’ve been here in
different neighborhoods my entire life.
RAMJOHN: Oh, okay. What college did you go to?
ALLEN: I went to Boston State College, which was the old teachers college for the city of
Boston. And in 1981 it was merged into UMass Boston, so it no longer exists.
Page 3 of 26
�OH-042 Transcript
RAMJOHN: I see, okay.
ALLEN: But it was the kind of formal, primary teacher training college for people who were
going to teach in Boston. So over many, many decades the vast majority of people who taught in
the Boston Public Schools were graduates of; it had different names, it was the Teachers’
College of the City of Boston, Boston State Teachers College, so it went through many names,
but it always had that prime purpose.
RAMJOHN: I see, okay. So you never really moved out of the city of Boston?
ALLEN: Just for graduate school.
RAMJOHN: Oh, okay, alright, I see. And what was it like to live in Roxbury and Mattapan?
ALLEN: I’m sixty-two, so this goes back to growing up in Roxbury in the 1940s and early
fifties and Mattapan in the mid- to late fifties. Roxbury, when I was growing up, was
predominantly a Jewish community. My family is Jewish. But it also was somewhat diverse
even in the mid- to late forties, early fifties because as the African American community was
growing in Boston after World War II and the kind of migration of the black community in
Boston as a group was from Beacon Hill, South End, Lower Roxbury, so there was some degree
of diversity in there, but it was a poor, working class community. In the section of Roxbury that
I lived in, it was pretty substandard housing, people were renting—a significant number of
people were renting from absentee landlords, so there was already a degree of disinvestment and
kind of decline in the neighborhood beginning in the late forties, early fifties.
I don’t know whether you read Death of an American Jewish Community,1 but it’s a history of
the migration of the Jewish community from Roxbury to Mattapan and out of Mattapan, and my
1
Death of an American Jewish Community was written by Hillel Levine and Lawrence Harmon and first published
in 1991.
Page 4 of 26
�OH-042 Transcript
family was part of that, and some of that was a response to internal racism within the Jewish
community, some of it was real estate speculation and blockbusting, so there was a lot of
movement and some turmoil in the community when I was growing up and moving from
Roxbury to Mattapan and then out of Mattapan. But in terms of the schools, the schools were
places that we walked to. I went to schools in Roxbury and they were nothing to shake a foot at
then; there were already problems in the Boston Public Schools that far preceded the
desegregation orders.
RAMJOHN: And what schools did you go to?
ALLEN: I went to a small elementary school on Columbia Road called the Atherton, which had
been torn down in the 1950s [1960s—corrected by narrator]. Then I went to the Christopher
Gibson School, which is actually the school where Jonathan Kozol taught at when he wrote
Death at an Early Age.2 Then I went to Latin School3 for a few months and was a Latin School
dropout, then I went to Patrick T. Campbell which later became the Martin Luther King, and
high school, I went to Boston Technical High School.
RAMJOHN: I see, okay. And what was it like in high school then?
ALLEN: (pauses to think) Well, Technical was one of the exam schools even then, so there
were three exam schools. So in that sense it was obviously different from the other high schools
in the city because of that exam and nearly everyone who was at my school, the expectation was
that you were on a college track, so that it was academic and it was focused on academics and
college track and college entrance, so it was a serious academic preparation in that regard.
You know, the one thing I will say is that through all my years, which I think helped shape some
of my values and attitudes, I had one African American, one teacher of color in my entire history
of going to the Boston Public Schools, from kindergarten through twelfth grade, and that was in
2
Death at an Early Age: The Destruction of the Hearts and Minds of Negro Children in the Boston Public Schools
was written by Jonathan Kozol and first published in 1967.
3
Boston Latin School is a public exam school and the oldest public school in the United States.
Page 5 of 26
�OH-042 Transcript
high school; my high school health teacher was a man named John O’Bryant,4 who later became
a member of the Boston School Committee. He and I remained very close friends for, you know,
from the 1950s until his death, and I worked on his school committee campaigns. But it was a
defining experience in that one began to see the segregation; certainly in the teaching and
administration there wasn’t a single black or Latino administrator or any other administrator of
color that I ever met going through the public schools beginning in 1947 when I started
kindergarten until I graduated in 1960. So the only person of color I saw in a classroom was
John O’Bryant, and I never saw a single person of color in an administrative position. And that
of course didn’t change very much by the time that Garrity brought his court order5 because it
also—his court order—you know how I talked about student assignment, but segregation in the
teaching faculty as well.
RAMJOHN: Yes. So that brings us to your family. When did you first start your family?
ALLEN: Let’s see, I got married in 1966, so a couple years after I graduated from college,
which was in 1964. My wife was also at the same college I was at; we met in college and got
married in ’66 and we decided to live in Roxbury. It was mostly kind of a political decision, that
we wanted to live in the heart of the black community, I think both in terms of our family values
and our own values, and feeling like—believing in integration and that we should try to kind of
live and understand and work in the African American community. So we lived in Roxbury for
actually seven years until we had two children, and then we lived in an attic apartment, and so
we decided to move out. And in 1972, we bought a house in Jamaica Plain, maybe ten minutes
away from where we lived in Roxbury. So our daughter was born in 1969 and we adopted our
son—he’s African American—we adopted him a year and a half later. So they both spent their
early years in Roxbury, going to school in Roxbury at the Trotter School.
4
John D. O’Bryant (1931-1992) was the first African American member of the Boston School Committee. Born
and raised in Boston, O’Bryant attended the Boston Public Schools and Boston University. He lost his first bid for
the school committee in 1975 but was elected two years later. In 1992, Boston Technical High School, where he
taught for several years in the early 1960s, was renamed the John D. O’Bryant School of Mathematics and Science.
5
In his June 21, 1974, opinion in the case of Tallulah Morgan et al. v. James Hennigan et al. (379 F. Supp. 410)
Judge W. Arthur Garrity ruled that the Boston School Committee had “intentionally brought about and maintained
racial segregation” in the Boston Public Schools. When the school committee did not submit a workable
desegregation plan as the opinion had required, the court established a plan that called for some students to be bused
from their own neighborhoods to attend schools in other neighborhoods, with the goal of creating racial balance in
the Boston Public Schools. (See http://www.lib.umb.edu/archives/garrity2.html for more information)
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RAMJOHN: I see. What was it like to live there with your family in Jamaica Plain?
ALLEN: In JP [Jamaica Plain] or Roxbury, or both?
RAMJOHN: Both, yeah.
ALLEN: I mean, we were very comfortable in Roxbury; the community that we lived in was a
very stable, family-oriented part of the community. People were warm and generous and their
hospitality—we always felt very, very welcome living in Roxbury. We moved because we
needed a house and we had an opportunity to buy this house in Jamaica Plain, very
inexpensively. Jamaica Plain was and is a great place to raise a family. We enjoyed being there
since 1972, where our children were raised. They continued in the Boston schools. I was very
involved in the community affairs in Jamaica Plain, so it was another community where, because
of its diversity, both ethnic and class diversity, it was a place that we felt very comfortable living
and raising our family.
RAMJOHN: So did both your children attend the Trotter School?
ALLEN: They both went to the Trotter School; they both went then to the Wheatley Middle
School in Roxbury. So when we moved to Jamaica Plain they were bused from Jamaica Plain to
Roxbury to first the Trotter, then the Wheatley, and then they both went to Latin School. And
my daughter graduated from Latin School in 1987, and my son lasted only two and a half years
at the Latin School. It was not a positive experience and some of that was, what he and we
ascribe to, I think, some troubling racial dynamics and attitudes on the part of some teachers and
administrators at the school, not a lot of, at that time, a lot of strong support for minority
students, and so he left Latin School in the middle of the ninth grade and actually became a
Metco6 student so he went to Brookline High to finish high school.
6
The Metco Program is a grant program funded by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. It is a voluntary program
intended to expand educational opportunities and reduce racial imbalance, by permitting students in certain cities to
attend public schools in other communities that have agreed to participate. (Taken from the Massachusetts
Department of Education website.)
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RAMJOHN: I see. And did you all choose as a family for both your children to attend the
schools that they went to?
ALLEN: We did. Even during the early years of desegregation, the magnet school system7 was
somewhat exempt from the overall court orders and so children who were in those magnet
schools could remain in those magnet schools; that was the Trotter,8 the Wheatley, and a couple
others, and so our children could remain there. We chose to have them there, and of course in
terms of the exam school, they took the test, and got admitted, so yeah, these were choices that
we made for our children.
RAMJOHN: I understand. Okay, with the federal court’s decision to desegregate the Boston
Public Schools, how did you find out that day?
ALLEN: Well, a little context and background. Since the early 1960s, I had been involved in
working around school reform and school desegregation issues. So this didn’t come as a surprise
or a shock, it was something that my wife and I completely supported and felt like it was the
absolutely just and moral thing to have happen and was long overdue. So I had worked on
various school committee campaigns starting in the 1960s actually, when I was in college. There
were reform organizations; the Citizens from Boston Schools was one, which was not dealing
explicitly with issues of racial segregation but was dealing with issues of the quality of
education. So I was involved in working with some early campaigns. I got involved, as I said,
in working on John O’Bryant’s school committee campaigns [and] Jean McGuire’s run for the
school committee.
I had worked in the sixties as a volunteer with the Urban League and with Operation Exodus and
with other community organizations that were really focused on school desegregation. I think
it’s fair to say that in Boston, the primary focus of the civil rights struggle in the late fifties
7
Magnet schools are schools offering special courses not available in the regular school curriculum and designed,
often as an aid to school desegregation, to attract students on a voluntary basis from all parts of a school district
without reference to the usual attendance zone rules. (Definition from the Library of Congress.)
8
The William Monroe Trotter School, which opened in Boston’s Roxbury neighborhood in 1969, was the country’s
second magnet school. The first magnet school was McCarver Elementary School in Tacoma, Washington.
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through the sixties and early, midseventies were the schools. And in other communities, housing
or public facilities or whatever it was, was kind of a key focus of the civil rights struggle, but in
Boston, it really was the schools and that started—really, it’s a longer history that goes back to
the nineteenth century, but beginning in the late 1950s, there were activists like Ruth Babson and
Ellen Jackson and others, and the local NAACP and the Urban League who were trying to bring
issues of equity and fairness and justice and fighting against segregated schools.
And of course the history of the court order, details, as Judge Garrity does, not only the
unwillingness but the deepening of the actions of the school committee to further segregation
even while it was denying there was such a thing as segregation and even while it was
completely stonewalling the forces within the African American community and its allies that
were trying to get the school committee to admit that there was actual segregation within the
schools. So I was somewhat involved in the politics of school desegregation in Boston in the
sixties and seventies and was aware of the court case, and so when it came, I and my family were
very strong supporters of that.
RAMJOHN: I see. And so what was your profession at the time?
ALLEN: Let’s see, when I graduated from Boston State in ’64 I went to graduate school [at]
New York University, got a master’s degree in history, came back, and for one year I taught in
the Boston schools. I taught at an old high school called Boston Trade High School, which has
been closed for decades, so that was my one year of teaching experience in the Boston schools.
And then I went back to teach, starting in 1966, to teach U.S. history at Boston State College,
where I had graduated from. Because Boston State was very much implicated in the segregation
of the Boston Public Schools teaching faculty, I did with others a lot of work to try to
desegregate the student body at Boston State. At that time, Boston State was on Huntington
Avenue, right across the street from Mission Hill and just a short distance from Roxbury, and
Boston State itself, as I said, was very segregated. In my graduating class in 1964 of three
hundred students, only two African American students, and no Latino students or any other
students, maybe one or two Asian. And that pattern continued, so if Boston State was one of the
main feeders for teachers in the schools and Boston State was segregated, guess what?
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So I taught at Boston State for eight years, from 1966 to 1974 during all of that turmoil around
school desegregation. And what I and other faculty did there was to work to integrate the student
body and the teaching body, and so we worked to get more black students into the school, special
programs. We supported black students when they had sit-ins and demonstrations, took over the
school, forced the school to hire black faculty, admit more black students. And that began to
have some impact, therefore, as students came into Boston [State], black students, graduating,
teaching in the Boston schools. So I was teaching and organizing within the schools and also
during this time working as a volunteer for places like the Urban League and other groups. And
then in ‘74 I was actually fired from my teaching position at Boston State, in part for the work
that I was doing around desegregating the student body and the faculty, and also that was during
the years of the anti-war movement and I had been active in that and working with other faculty
and students, so I was fired.
Then I went to work for an adult education center that was working with people involved in
workplace and community organizing. So we were like a school where people came and took
workshops and courses around the political situation and understanding the schools. We had a
whole program on the schools and school desegregation and school reform. And when
desegregation occurred, we at this school had a lot of workshops and courses for parents who
were involved in parent councils to give them an understanding of the history of the Boston
schools, the politics of the schools, the history of desegregation. We used Judge Garrity’s
decision, the printed decision, as a text, so people could understand where that segregation came
from, why he ruled the way he did.
And at the same time, beginning in ‘75, our kids were in the schools. I was elected to the parent
councils that were set up by Judge Garrity, so, between ‘74, ‘75, and ‘83, while I was working at
this Boston community school, this adult education center, I did a lot of work on those parent
councils and eventually became the co-chair of the Citywide Parent Advisory Council for three
to four years. That was my major involvement besides the Boston community school, and the
education work we were doing with parents who were on councils. I myself was directly
involved, as a member, in doing—whereas Judge Garrity set these councils up to monitor the
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desegregation effort, many of us felt that we had to go beyond monitoring and the parents had to
become an active, vibrant voice for desegregation for school reform.
And so there were, during this period of time—which I think is one of the untold stories of
school desegregation in Boston—there were literally hundreds upon hundreds of white parents
who were actively involved in the school parent councils. And who were, even if on the one
hand they may have been committed to school desegregation or they may have just had their kids
in schools and were being bused. There were parents that said, Our kids are in these schools and
we want these schools to work and we want them to be safe, we want them to be places where
they can learn and we need to be involved. And Judge Garrity knew that he had limits to what
he could do with his federal court order, which really had to do with school desegregation, but he
was always very supportive of parent involvement, parent engagement. He had us, and I testified
in his court a number of times around what we as parents were seeing in the schools and I think,
and I know this, in more sort of off line conversations with him, that he felt the more power the
parents could have to engage the schools and to hold the schools accountable was something that
he supported.
RAMJOHN: What did you see in the schools? What was it that you were testifying about?
ALLEN: (pauses to think) There were really two things that we were focused on as parent
activists and organizers. One was to do as much as we could to support desegregation because
we saw desegregation no longer as a question of absolute justice for minority parents and
students, but that entwined in the very definition of a quality education is a diverse education, is
people knowing and understanding different communities and cultures and learning from one
another. So part of our effort was to ensure as much as we could that schools were safe and
welcoming and that diverse parents were very much involved in these parent councils to help
create that kind of environment and role models that everyone could see.
And the other thrust was of course about a range of issues that had to do with quality of
education, that could be anything from the condition of the buildings and organizing and
advocating for more money to fix up buildings, to pushing the school system to hire more and
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more minority teachers, because the court order said there had to be a minimum and we were
always pushing beyond the minimum. It could mean the quality of the curriculum, it could mean
that parents had a right to know what their children were supposed to be learning and how to
hold the schools accountable to make sure their children were learning what the system was
supposed to teach them, and if the children were having challenges then what was the system
doing to provide support services. These are very similar issues to what people are talking about
today and they were very much present in the seventies and early eighties when I was involved
as a parent activist.
And so we found, of course, things were very uneven in the schools. There were schools where
there was good administrative leadership, strong teachers, always room for improvement, but
then other schools where the education was much weaker, and what was the school system doing
about removing principals or teachers that weren’t cutting it? So our role as parents was to gain
as much information and knowledge about the school, the school system, curriculum, teaching,
learning, and to hold the schools accountable to us as parents.
RAMJOHN: Exactly.
ALLEN: And I think this was all in the context, of course, of supporting desegregation; we
know that there was a parallel movement obviously through ’74, through the late seventies, early
eighties, of others who were opposing desegregation who wanted to take the school system back,
pre-1974, and who would argue that the schools were fine and we should have neighborhood
schools. Having taught in the Boston schools before desegregation—my wife also taught in the
Boston public schools before desegregation; she taught at South Boston High School, which was
an entirely white school and she saw what was happening there in terms of overcrowded classes,
a very small percentage of students going on to higher education, a very high drop out rate,
violence against students of color who tried to enroll there in the late sixties when she taught
there—everything that would give the lie to people arguing that these schools were functioning
well, and that our children were getting good education. What Garrity, of course, argues in his
court order is that this is endemic through most of the entire school system and that
desegregation became a way, if people could only realize it, of not only bringing justice to
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minority students but radically transforming the quality of education for all students, and that
was what my commitment was to at this time.
RAMJOHN: Yes, so obviously you had the support of your wife during this time, but how did
your children feel about the decision? Did they understand what was going on?
ALLEN: They were quite young when it started in ‘74 and ’75, so I don’t think there was a clear
understanding of that. One always hopes that as a parent that you’re inculcating certain values
into your children and I think—I think we’re quite fortunate that our children are 35 and 33. My
son is a Boston Public School teacher himself now and he’s very committed to teaching in
Boston. Our daughter manages a non-profit organization. So they have certain values and I
think, as they went through the Boston Public Schools, because they went to the integrated
schools they had experiences that were absolutely vital to their development as whole human
beings.
I remember when Judge Garrity died and my wife and I went to the wake and then the funeral—
but at the wake we met his family and my wife and I both said to his family—to his two
daughters that we met, that our lives and our children’s lives were completely enriched and made
whole by school desegregation. Then his daughter started crying and we started crying because
he had been so vilified and he had to have Secret Service protection for him and his family
through all of those years, and even at the funeral, there were federal marshals at the wake and
the funeral because of continuing death threats against his family. So I always thought he was an
extraordinarily courageous man who did the right thing, and I think our children understood and
believed that this was the right thing as well.
And their experiences were generally positive. My son, as I said, being African American has
experiences different from my daughter’s, who is white. He had some very difficult times at
Latin School, because of course Latin School was, up until ’75, ’76, almost entirely white until
Judge Garrity ordered desegregation of the exam schools. I think it was very difficult for
students of color at the Latin School. Where did you go to school?
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RAMJOHN: I actually grew up in Trinidad.
ALLEN: Oh, okay.
RAMJOHN: But I went to high school here. I went to Fontbonne Academy. But I understand
the Latin School system. Now, what I understand at this time was that the race of the children
often fell under what the race of the parent was so that your son, for instance, would be listed
officially as white. Was that true?
ALLEN: No, we would list our son [as African American]; I mean people could play that game
if they wanted to, and some did I think. You could determine the racial ethnic identity of your
children. Yeah, we did that, so he was always—as he got older he determined his own identity.
He’s of mixed parentage, so his birth mother is white, his birth father is African American and
Cape Verdean, but he always defines himself as African American.
RAMJOHN: And how do you feel your community reacted to Judge Garrity’s decision? The
community in which you lived at the time?
ALLEN: We lived in Jamaica Plain at the time and again, I think its fair to say that Jamaica
Plain was one of the neighborhoods where there was much more acceptance of Judge Garrity’s
ruling and its implications and effects on the community, that while it was disruptive to some
families and resulted in children being bused to schools outside the neighborhood, you never had
in Jamaica Plain what happened in South Boston or parts of Dorchester. It was just the opposite.
I think you had, generally, an acceptance and a belief that at least we’ll try this or we’re
wholeheartedly in support of it, but you didn’t have the kind of resistance that you had in other
neighborhoods.
RAMJOHN: I see. And do you feel that your neighbors were supportive of you and your role
in being a parent activist?
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ALLEN: (inaudible, followed by quiet laughter) We actually lived on a small, dead end street
where most of our neighbors were quite elderly and did not have school aged children. There
were people that had lived there for decades. And we had very good relations with our
neighbors, sort of friendly. I would say they tended to be somewhat more conservative. They
were predominantly white, but didn’t have school aged children for the most part. But we never
felt any hostility. I mean they certainly knew who I was; I was in the newspapers, I testified in
Judge Garrity’s court, or I was leading a demonstration, or whatever it might be. Who I was and
my position was quite clear, and I never felt any hostility from my neighbors about my role in
supporting school desegregation or our children going to desegregated schools.
RAMJOHN: Did you have any fears as a parent for your children?
ALLEN: I think, besides all the other normal fears that parents have for children (laughter), I
think we certainly had concerns about our son and what was happening with him at Latin School.
I also ran for Boston School Committee in 1983; it was the first year where people were running
for city council and school committee as a result of redistricting and so there used to be, before
’83, a five member at-large school committee. And beginning in 1983, the school committee
was elected four at-large and nine districts, so I ran from the Jamaica Plain/West Roxbury
district. And that certainly caused—because West Roxbury was in fact a neighborhood that
resisted desegregation, not in the violent way that may have happened in South Boston, but still a
lot of resistance.
So I was a very public figure in support of desegregation and that did have some impact on both
of our kids at Latin School in that there were insults hurled at them. Our son was actually
assaulted once by some white students from West Roxbury. And so I think they did, to some
extent, especially our son, pay the price for our own activism in support of desegregation.
RAMJOHN: I see. I’m sorry to hear that. What did you tell your children about school that
year?
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ALLEN: Well, I mean, this was sort of an ongoing education for all of us, and as they went
through the Boston schools, in the mid- to late seventies, early eighties. And we did what all
parents tried to do in terms of giving them support and talking to them about what was going on
in the schools and the turmoil. They were somewhat removed from some of that because the
Trotter and the Wheatley were already integrated. And Latin School was Latin School, and it
was bad for a lot of kids, white, black and other. It was not a very nurturing or warm
environment, and it was sometimes much more difficult for students of color, so all you can do is
give them the support and try to explain what’s going on and why.
RAMJOHN: And did the school administration—did the city ever contact you to prepare you,
to prepare your child for the first day of school? Did they give you any suggestions or guidelines
about how to speak with your children about what was going on in the schools that year?
ALLEN: Now which year are you talking about?
RAMJOHN: In 1974.
ALLEN: Okay, so that year—our daughter was just in kindergarten that year and our son wasn’t
yet in. So at the precise time of the court order, because I was talking more about the kind of
period [from] ’74 to early eighties, but right at that point in time, I cannot recall what, if
anything, the school system did. I would doubt if the school system did very much; perhaps they
sent out something. But again because our daughter was at the Trotter, it was already sort of a
nurturing, supporting environment, the teachers, the administration, so I think that was an
exception.
RAMJOHN: Did you ever pull your children out of school?
ALLEN: No, no, we were always totally committed to school desegregation, and they were
attending the Boston Public Schools.
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RAMJOHN: But your son was the only one who ever switched schools because of
discrimination?
ALLEN: Right, so I suppose actually I have to take back what I just said because yes, we did
pull him out. He pulled himself out; he said he no longer wanted to stay in Latin School and we
looked at a lot of alternatives and because he was African American we applied to Metco and he
got accepted and went to Brookline High for the end of his sophomore [freshman—corrected by
narrator] year, and then his junior and senior year.
RAMJOHN: And how did your children commute to school?
ALLEN: While we were in Jamaica Plain, they were bused to school from the bottom of our hill
to the Trotter or the Wheatley. And when they went to Latin School they actually either took a
bus or we would drive them.
RAMJOHN: Okay, so they would take the public transportation if you didn’t drive, okay, I
understand. Did they ever complain about any problems commuting to school?
ALLEN: Not that I recall.
RAMJOHN: Okay. And did you have a relationship with your children’s teachers throughout
their Boston Public School education?
ALLEN: We tended to be involved as parents, as parent activists. I think both of us did all of the
standard stuff in terms of open houses and meetings with teachers. But I also was on the school
parent councils, so I had a direct involvement in those schools. So yeah, we had relationships at
least through the elementary and middle school, the Trotter and the Wheatley. Less so through
high school and I think that’s not atypical in terms of students beginning to kind of want some
distance between themselves, their parents, and the school.
RAMJOHN: Yes. And did you find the teachers helpful?
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ALLEN: Generally, yeah. I mean (pauses to think)—I think most of our experience with
teachers was that if you were active and involved and knew your rights and knew the right
questions to ask, then people would be responsive. But if parents were going and didn’t know
the system and didn’t quite know what they could or should ask it was much more difficult so
that’s part of what I think is critical of parents knowing their rights and getting support from
other parents, you know, how to engage teachers and administrators.
RAMJOHN: Did your views as a parent regarding the desegregation of the schools, did those
views ever conflict with those of the teachers?
ALLEN: You know, I think that would be more with our experience with Latin School, which
we found quite rigid, inflexible. The attitude was theirs that we’ve been doing it right for three
hundred plus years, this is the way people get a good education, it’s the best school in the
country, etc., etc. So there was a rigidity at Latin School where there was much less openness to
whether you were white or black, but I think that rigidity had a much more profound impact on
black students and parents than it did on white because it was an added element of race on top of
the element of this is just the way it is and it’s not going to change. So I think that was our
experience with Latin School.
RAMJOHN: And how do you feel overall about your children’s education in the Boston Public
Schools?
ALLEN: We think that our daughter certainly received a good education; she actually ended up
liking Latin School. It was something that she could adjust to and it kind of connected to her
strengths. She was a strong reader, and that’s really at the core of that if you can read
voluminously and whatever. And she went to Harvard from Latin School so she was happy and
then she went to graduate school at UCal [University of California] Berkeley, and so she did
very well. And our son, even though he had a very hard time [and] I think it was more difficult
for him, he did fairly well at Brookline High School and then he went on to Sarah Lawrence
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College, so they both got a very good education and part of that obviously has to be because of
the Boston Public Schools.
RAMJOHN: And did your wife continue teaching at South Boston High?
ALLEN: No, she taught there just for a few years and then when the kids were born, she stopped
teaching and then she did other work. She did actually go back teaching but to a girls’ Catholic
high school in South Boston called Cardinal Cushing High School. It closed down a number of
years—she taught there for fifteen years until it closed and now she’s a college professor. She
teaches ethics and philosophy at Mass Bay Community College. But she went back to South
Boston to teach at this school, Cardinal Cushing High School, for about fifteen years.
RAMJOHN: And did she herself experience any verbal attacks or assault for your family’s
participation in the desegregation?
ALLEN: (pauses to think) Verbal perhaps, arguments with people, but nothing that I think
would be serious.
RAMJOHN: Did your community in Jamaica Plain change substantially after the decision was
made?
ALLEN: Not immediately after, and I think the changes that took place in Jamaica Plain were
much more the result of the speculative real estate market and gentrification. And so there had
been sort of successive waves of gentrification in Jamaica Plain that had more to do with the
housing market. Obviously schools are not unrelated to that and do have a role to play in the
determination of the value of housing in a community, in a neighborhood. But I think what was
really happening in Jamaica Plain in terms of the housing market was really, to a significant
extent, independent of what was going on in the schools—that it became a very hot market and
people simply couldn’t afford to stay there, their kids couldn’t afford to buy the houses they
lived in or rented.
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So there was a very radical change in substantial parts of Jamaica Plain beginning in the late
seventies, early eighties, then again in the late eighties, then again in the early nineties, these
successive waves, so that the value of real estate just was extraordinarily high, inflated over
those years. I think that clearly as wealthier people moved into Jamaica Plain with school aged
children, many of them, I think, rarely if ever gave the schools a fair chance in terms of looking
at what was going on in these schools, what was the quality of education. There was a sense
that, well, Boston’s in turmoil, the schools aren’t good, we’re raising our children, but we’re not
going to send them to the public schools. And so they would choose private schools, alternative
schools, or they would leave Jamaica Plain and move to a suburb. So they might have moved in
when the market was heating up, had the money to pay more for a house, had no children—it’s a
syndrome. Then they’d have children, next day they were school-age; they might send them to
kindergarten or preschool, then they’d leave. New people would come in who perhaps didn’t
have children, who had very young children; they weren’t thinking necessarily immediately
about the school, so the cycle kept going. Jamaica Plain, as a neighborhood, has radically
changed since we’ve been there in terms of—especially, kind of, the class composition.
RAMJOHN: I see. And how did you feel about the politicians during this time?
ALLEN: Well, there were good ones, and mediocre ones, and bad ones. No, I mean, if you go
back to the 19—to pre-desegregation, there were very few political leaders at any level in the
city that one could say were civil rights activists and supporters. Generally the political
establishment was resistant to school desegregation and other kinds of progressive reforms in the
city. I think it was the year—I’m trying to think of the year John O’Bryant was first elected to
the school committee—it was 19—.9 When he was elected, he was the first African American to
be elected to the school committee in the twentieth century. And only one person had been
elected to the city council since the 1940s, and that was Tom Atkins, and so we had an almost
exclusively white political class. And that only began to change in the late seventies, early
eighties, and then with this district representation battle that took place in the early eighties, to
elect people by districts rather than at-large. And this is a phenomenon around the country,
where at-large dilutes minority voting strength.
9
John O’Bryant was elected to the school committee in 1977.
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And so you did, beginning in the eighties, have more people of color elected both to the school
committee and the city council. And of course you had the mayoral election of ‘83 in which Mel
King ran and mobilized very significant constituencies within communities of color. And Ray
Flynn won that election, and while he was an anti-busing activist in the seventies as a state rep
from South Boston, most people agree he was not a hater and he was not vicious and he was not
actively racist. He was someone who really, to a certain extent, worked, when he became mayor,
to heal divisions and to be reaching out to the African American and the growing Latino
community. And so I think as Boston’s demographics changed, you could see a radical
difference from the sixties and early seventies and to the mid- to late eighties. And so those
changes have just taken place over time and I think the political leadership was clearly very
resistant and hostile to school desegregation in the sixties and seventies and continued to be so
throughout the seventies, and then I think it began to change in the eighties.
RAMJOHN: Did you ever feel abandoned by the politicians?
ALLEN: No, because most of them I never felt were with me in the first place. To be
abandoned means that they were there and they left you, but if you believe that they weren’t with
us to begin with, then it was only we felt like they were on the wrong side of history. History
was marching ahead and leaving them behind.
RAMJOHN: Did you have any contact with the media?
ALLEN: Yes.
RAMJOHN: And what kind of contact was that?
ALLEN: Mostly as a parent activist and organizer and my role on the Citywide Parents Council
in mid- to late seventies, early eighties. And so I sometimes was a spokesperson for the
Citywide Parents Council talking about either support for desegregation or in the different
campaigns that the parents were leading around upgrading school facilities, preventing school
Page 21 of 26
�OH-042 Transcript
closings, arguing for reducing class size, arguing for parent role in evaluating principals and
selecting principals. So there was media coverage, an obviously very intense media coverage of
the schools.
It was always a struggle to get the media to recognize that parents were a legitimate
constituency, and they were a voice to be heard and respected. And that voice needed to be
represented in the media and that was never easy. It usually happened when there was a crisis,
conflicts. We weren’t ones that the media would normally turn to to get a comment; that was
usually the elected officials or someone who was easily recognizable as a stalwart busing
opponent would get talked to. But I think the press generally did a poor job of listening to and
respecting the voices of particularly white parents who were involved in and supporting
desegregation. There was always this myth that desegregation was this suburban conspiracy and
was just black parents, and I think ignoring an important constituency that was in support of
desegregation and aligned with black parents and white parents who kept their kids in the
schools, joined parent councils and worked to make the schools safe and better.
RAMJOHN: So how do you feel you were portrayed by the media or in the press?
ALLEN: What would my memory tell me about that? (pauses to think) I mean, generally I
would say it was a struggle to get the media to focus on the issues that we were talking about and
the portrayal was more like, sometimes, can activists be trouble makers rather than what are the
issues and these are our kids in the schools and we are trying to play a responsible role in holding
the schools accountable. Occasionally, you’d get a good story, but it wasn’t easy. I think mostly
we were ignored.
RAMJOHN: And do you think the media played a major role in shaping people’s opinions
around the country at that time?
ALLEN: Oh, absolutely. I think what people saw in obviously in ’74, or ’75, ‘76 was buses
rolling, buses being stoned, people being—students being assaulted, demonstrations against the
integration of the schools. That was what people saw, that was the story. Clearly that was a
Page 22 of 26
�OH-042 Transcript
significant part of the story, but too often what they missed was how many schools where buses
rolling up where there was no tension, where there was no violence, where people were trying to
make this change work. And I think that’s where the media did a disservice to the community, to
black and white parents and students who were in favor of desegregation and trying to make it
work.
RAMJOHN: Now some people would say that they were against busing because they shouldn’t
feel that their children should have to go to another city or another town—
ALLEN: Another neighborhood.
RAMJOHN: Another neighborhood—that’s right—that they had never even been to and that
that’s the reason that they were against busing. How would you respond to that?
ALLEN: I think there are different levels of concern that parents had, and confusion, and I think
ultimately one must respect the decision that any parent makes about the safety and education of
their child. And that’s a decision best left to the parent and there were choices of course in terms
of saying, “No, they’re going to parochial school or private school.” And even within the school
desegregation effort, eventually there were many more choices that parents had, but not initially
like, “You’re assigned to this school.” And I think there were some remembering that Boston
was a very segregated city; the housing patterns were almost entirely segregated. So white
people and people of color of the city had very little opportunity to interact, to engage with one
another around what do we have in common in terms of our children and our hopes and fears and
our communities. And so busing did come as a shock given that lack of experience, that lack of
opportunity that white and black parents had.
The work force was segregated, housing was segregated, and it’s an argument that people make,
that, Why don’t we go slow? Why didn’t we ease in desegregation? And the counterargument of
course is that once Judge Garrity found that the children were being deprived of their
constitutional rights, how do you say that these few children this year will get their rights but
these other children will wait two, three, five, eight years? I mean you couldn’t do that legally
Page 23 of 26
�OH-042 Transcript
and morally, and so yes, this is a dilemma, it’s a challenge. You have the history and the context
of Boston and the kind of community it is, and then you’ve got the rights of African American
children, and in the balance you have to go with the rights of these children and the city had to
make that work. And I think the lack of leadership on the part of the political class, elected
officials, the media, to work day in and day out, to make it work. But of course you remember
that the resistance to Judge Garrity’s order was so intense right to the day that he issued the
order, and the school committee kept taking actions to resist any kind of integration and elected
officials kept resisting it.
And so I think it was a firestorm waiting to happen, but I don’t know that there would be any
way to deny the rights of those children. I think a lot could have been done to make the streets
safer, the schools safer, to prepare parents. And one of the important things about the parent
councils that Garrity set up was in fact they became one of the few places in the city where black
and white parents could meet and talk. Those were the ones that sent their kids to the schools,
those that were boycotting or not of course were left out of that dialogue, left out of finding
common ground for themselves and their children.
RAMJOHN: So through your experiences, working for the desegregation, what was it that
motivated you? What kept you going through this very difficult time?
ALLEN: I think it starts just with one’s own ethical world view and sense of values and what
you believe is the meaning of justice and what it means to have a conscience. You try to act on
those values of an ethical world view and your sense of justice and remain true to that as much as
you can, and the world is full of compromises as always, and you make those. But I think what
kept us, my wife and I, our children, going was the particular set of values that we have and our
belief that desegregation was absolutely the right thing to do, legally, ethically, morally. And
that’s what motivated us and our belief that this had to happen.
RAMJOHN: Looking back now do you think the court’s decision affected the city of Boston in
a positive way?
Page 24 of 26
�OH-042 Transcript
ALLEN: Oh, a profoundly positive way. I mean, it was with a great deal of pain and turmoil
and some suffering and no one should discount how hard it is to have justice. If one could snap
their finger and say we’re all equal, we’d be living in Neverland. But in order to bring about this
change, it was going to be traumatic, and of course in many ways, there is still some of that
trauma. We’re still trying to work forwards in this city, we still have segregated neighborhoods,
our schools are re-segregated in some ways. Yet we don’t have a school system which
consciously discriminates against students of color, that are making policies everyday to
discriminate; we don’t have that. We may have a school system that needs vast improvement
and changes, but we’ve ended legally sanctioned discrimination and segregation in our schools.
We have much more diversity in this city at all levels because I think in part the trauma that this
city went through to dismantle segregated schools. And I think the city is far healthier for having
gone through that at that point and I don’t know what the alternative would be. The alternatives
that people talk about is, well, let’s take twelve or thirteen years, let’s do it a grade at a time, or
let’s integrate housing and then schools would be integrated. And I think well, if people thought
resistance to school desegregation was intense, how about resistance to housing integration? Dr.
King and a lot of others tried it and maybe we’ll have courts someday that rule that that has to
end, but that wasn’t an option then. What we had then was a federal judge finding legally
sanctioned segregation, and that had to end.
RAMJOHN: Well, my final question for you today is how do you feel about the city of Boston
today, especially the Boston Public Schools?
ALLEN: We’re still living here; we have no intention of leaving. Our son lives in the city, as I
said, teaches in the city, is raising their daughter in the city. We remain hopeful that Boston—
being a place where it embraces diversity and embraces the rights of all people to live in all
neighborhoods and to send their children to schools. We think that it’s not only the kind of
demographic changes that compel that, but also that people’s attitudes and values are changing.
We’re not anywhere near where we need to be as a city and a community, but certainly that’s
changing.
Page 25 of 26
�OH-042 Transcript
And I think the Boston Public Schools have enormous challenges. Some of that is having to do
with high stakes testing and graduation requirements and the lack of preparation of students to
pass those tests, and the fact that much more money and resources are needed to upgrade the
schools. I think parents need to achieve much greater power in the Boston Public Schools to
hold those schools accountable; those are still battles that are going on. I think it’s absolutely
critical that organized parents and organized teachers, and the teachers union, become allies in
fostering deep and profound change in the Boston Public Schools. I don’t think the schools can
change in Boston unless the teachers help to make it change and that means the union has to be a
progressive force and I think the parents have to be a progressive powerful force. I see much
more hope in that than I do in any top down reforms that come from business people or
foundations or anyone that says, We’re going to make these changes and try to force that without
engaging the entire school community in a process of profound understanding of the changes that
are needed. I remain hopeful that that will happen but it’s still going to be a fight.
RAMJOHN: Well, thank you very much for today.
ALLEN: Great, thank you.
END OF INTERVIEW
Page 26 of 26
�
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers, 1926-2001
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Boston (Mass.)<br />Legislators--United States <br />Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001<br /> South Boston (Boston, Mass.)<br />Legislators. Massachusetts<br />Politicians--Massachusetts
Description
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The paper of Congressman John Joseph Moakley are housed at the Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.<br /><br />The sample of items from the Moakley papers exhibited on this site are used courtesy of the Moakley Archive and Institute. The full collection documents Moakley’s early life, his World War II service, his terms in the Massachusetts House of Representatives and Senate, and his service in Congress. The majority of the collection covers Moakley’s congressional career from 1973 until 2001. A <a title="Moakley papers" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/MoakleyArchive/ms100.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> the the collection is available online. <br /><br />The collection is open for research. Access to materials may be restricted based on their condition. Please consult the <a title="Moakley Archive" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/moakley" target="_blank">Moakley Archive and Institute</a>, Suffolk University for more information.
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Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001.
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers (MS 100), 1926-2001. View the <a title="John Joseph Moakley Papers" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/MoakleyArchive/ms100.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> at the Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.
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1926-2001
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<div>
<div>
<p>Moakley Papers: Moakley Oral History Project<br />Enemies of War Collection (MS 104)<br /> Jamaica Plain Committee on Central America Collection (MS 103)</p>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
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Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University.
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300.7 cubic feet (521 boxes)
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English
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MS 100
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Boston, Mass.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Ramjohn, Rhea
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Allen, Henry
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Suffolk University Law School, Boston, Mass.
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See PDF transcript
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1:00:37
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Mr. Allen’s background (education and family) p. 3 (00:30)
Involvement in school desegregation efforts p. 8 (11:43)
Community’s reaction to court’s decision p. 14 (29:00)
His family’s school experiences p. 15 (31:10)
Community dynamics p. 19 (40:45)
Impact of media p. 21 (46:47)
Reflections on his experiences p. 22 (50:42)
Final thoughts on Boston’s current educational situation p. 25 (58:05)
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Transcript of Oral History Interview of Henry L. Allen
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Boston (Mass.)
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Magnet schools
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In this interview, Henry L. Allen, a lifelong resident of Boston, reflects on the impact of Judge W. Arthur Garrity's 1974 decision in the case of Morgan v. Hennigan, which required some students to be bused between Boston neighborhoods with the goal of creating racial balance in the public schools. He discusses his activism efforts in support of school desegregation; his children's experiences in the Boston Public Schools during the mid- to late 1970s and early 1980s; racial dynamics in the city over the past several decades; and the current state of the city and its schools.
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
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Moakley Oral History Project
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
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February 2, 2005
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Kintz, Laura
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Copyright Suffolk University. This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute. Prior permission is required for any commercial use.
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Moakley Oral History Project: http://moakleyarchive.omeka.net/collections/show/1
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Oral history interview transcript
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OH-042
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/15912/archive/files/784159623a3d7471107832a6364d387d.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=JEXGvUWGLCZGOilRcG6HYZEsco81hMjqA2VEtNHscopdnRpNXEPYuzSWIYda37em-yXNTTaGiZ9JuVkB3xWv51tNmKC6WIDGxRZRZ0PRFWynWn2NVDAJqPVCvN9DnY5QJJY4lmNak2CmyPKu8ypAzxX%7EbUkXv4mVIdvkqe4dkp-YMicfx2RSzG5IjCKaTIj1hhKhNiGKvbMVgNzIGB1cyjcZMlZUR-0a2fTzX1obSJbiikNj4fn03-l4O2iC49tpDkrRZzlj73ESy3A3aW8s6%7E5EgHtwrlvde2DotD3f6U7A1kWn2Vph-dqpyfeIprimOL9O-G%7EeLXNO8LiYMpBcjA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
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PDF Text
Text
Oral History Interview of John Joseph Moakley (OH-001)
Moakley Archive and Institute
www.suffolk.edu/moakley
archives@suffolk.edu
Oral History Interview of John
Joseph Moakley
Interview Date: April 2, 2001
Interviewed by: Robert Allison, Suffolk
University History Professor and Joseph
McEttrick, Suffolk University Law School
Professor.
Copyright Information: Copyright
©2001, Suffolk University.
Citation: Moakley, John Joseph. Interviewed by Robert Allison and Joseph McEttrick. John
Joseph Moakley Oral History Project, OH-001. 2 April 2001. Transcript and video recording
available. John Joseph Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, MA.
Interview Summary
Congressman John Joseph Moakley, who served the Ninth District of Massachusetts from 1973
through 2001, discusses his life and political career. This interview covers what it was like to
grow up in South Boston in the thirties and forties; his military service in the Navy during
WWII; how he became involved in local politics in the fifties; his career as a member of the
Massachusetts General Court during the fifties and sixties; his memories of Suffolk University
Law School and his law practice; his late wife Evelyn; how the city of Boston has changed
during his career in public office; his thoughts regarding the Boston school desegregation in the
seventies; his campaigns for congressional office; his career working in Washington D.C.; his
work in El Salvador as chairman of a special task force following the murder of six Jesuit priests,
their housekeeper and her daughter; and his work to help improve conditions in Cuba. He ends
by remembering important figures that helped shape his career and giving his own advice for
future elected officials.
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
1
�Oral History Interview of John Joseph Moakley (OH-001)
Moakley Archive and Institute
www.suffolk.edu/moakley
archives@suffolk.edu
Subject Headings
Boston (Mass.)
Cuba
El Salvador
Massachusetts Politics and
Government
Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001
O’Neill, Tip
South Boston (Boston, Mass)
Suffolk University Law School
United States. Congress.
Table of Contents
Part 1
Growing up in South Boston
p. 3 (00:02)
Military service
p. 9 (10:29)
State political career
p. 12 (16:05)
Member of Congress (1973-2001)
p. 19 (29:30)
Evelyn Moakley
p. 25 (41:24)
Suffolk University Law School
p. 26 (43:34)
Thoughts on political figures
p. 30 (47:58)
Improvements to Boston
p. 36 (1:00:30)
Part 2
El Salvador involvement
p. 43 (13:55)
Cuba
p. 49 (29:09)
Reflections of almost fifty years in public office
p. 53 (39:07)
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
2
�Oral History Interview of John Joseph Moakley (OH-001)
Moakley Archive and Institute
www.suffolk.edu/moakley
archives@suffolk.edu
Interview transcript begins on next page
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
3
�OH-001 Transcript
This interview took place on April 2, 2001, at Congressman Moakley’s district office
in South Boston, MA.
Interview Transcript
(Interview begins during casual conversation)
CONGRESSMAN JOHN JOSEPH MOAKLEY: Unless it’s getting right down to the wire
and we’re in contention somewhere, then I’m an avid sports fan.
PROFESSOR JOSEPH McETTRICK: In high school football in those days, did they have
you play offense/defense?
MOAKLEY: Oh, yeah. We played everything.
(interruption)
PROFESSOR ROBERT ALLISON: To follow this up, you played hockey and football.
Where would you play when you were a kid? I mean not when you got on the team.
MOAKLEY: Oh, down at Columbus Park; they used to flood the park in the wintertime and it
would freeze over, and you’d go ice skating. Of course ice skates were very, very expensive in
those days, and your parents would always buy them three sizes too big anyway, and you’d be on
your ankles all day long, and by the time you grew into the shoes, you probably couldn’t walk
anyway.
But you know, when I was growing up as a kid everything was unorganized. I mean, every
corner had a baseball team. Every corner had a football team. Every corner had some kind of a
pickup situation. And the Columbus Park, fifty-seven acre park in South Boston, right across
from the projects where I grew up, that was the place we all met.
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
4
�OH-001 Transcript
McETTRICK: Did you have a chance much to get out on the water?
MOAKLEY: Well, not a boat—I like to swim. I bought a boat when JFK [John Fitzgerald
Kennedy] got assassinated, and I had it about two years, and then I took up golf, and I didn’t
have time for the boat, so I got rid of the boat.
ALLISON: What kind of a boat was it?
MOAKLEY: It was a thirty-two foot sports Ulrichsen lapstrake, three-quarter inch lapstrake
mahogany, 310-grade marine engine; but they’re a lot more fun riding in someone else’s than
owning your own I’ll tell you.
ALLISON: It’s an expensive hobby?
MOAKLEY: Well, you know, you’re never through with it, and then in the wintertime, you’re
scraping it, and in the summertime you’re equipping it, you know, and then you can’t go out by
yourself, so you invite everybody and you feed them and give them the fishing poles. You go
fishing up till about seven o’clock at night; you come back, and you’re there till midnight
unsnarling the lines. I figured there were more important things to do with my time.
McETTRICK: I guess we were interested in what it was like growing up in South Boston, and
what your parents did, and where did you hang out in the neighborhood? Tell us a little bit about
your growing up in Southie.
MOAKLEY: Well growing up in the thirties, everybody was poor, but we just didn’t know it.
Pre-television, so that there was nothing to keep you in the house, so life really existed on the
streets, the street corners. And you learned to bond with one another. You learned your
strengths and weaknesses. You learned what life was really about just being on the street
corners. And I think a lot of my political acumen comes from the ability that I developed just
hanging on street corners and knowing, what was the right thing to do, what was the wrong thing
to do, and how best to achieve an end.
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
5
�OH-001 Transcript
McETTRICK: So where were you living when you first remember growing up in South
Boston? Had the project been built yet, or where were you?
MOAKLEY: Yeah. The project was built in ‘38, and my father, my mother, and my two
brothers were one of the first people in the projects. But we grew up on Dorchester and Old
Colony Avenue, Dorchester Street and Old Colony Avenue, over a hardware store. And I
figured that’s where I got my nuts and bolts politics from the hardware store. (laughter)
ALLISON: Is it still there?
MOAKLEY: Yeah. It’s there. In fact, I told someone that someone just bought the house I
was born in. He says, “Are they going to make a national shrine out of it?” I said, “No. They’re
going to tear it down and make a garage out of it.” (laughter)
ALLISON: So what was it like moving into the projects?
MOAKLEY: Actually, it was a delight. I mean, gee, we moved into a brand new building, and
we really had ice cube trays then. You know, you could make your own ice cubes and you had
heat. I mean up until then the only heat we had was the oven in the kitchen. We didn’t have any
central heat, and when you get up out of bed, you had to run like hell, open the oven door and put
your feet in, so you wouldn’t freeze to death. But we lived there from ‘38 to ‘41, ‘42.
McETTRICK: How large was your family?
MOAKLEY: It was my father, mother, and three sons.
McETTRICK: And you’re the oldest?
MOAKLEY: I was the oldest, yeah.
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
6
�OH-001 Transcript
McETTRICK: So where did you go to elementary school?
MOAKLEY: I went to John Boyle O’Reilly School, which is now an elderly housing, and then
I went to the Thomas N. Hart School, which is now elderly housing, and then I went to South
Boston High School, and then I quit when I was in my third year when I was fifteen; forged
some papers, joined the navy. This was in the middle of World War II. Did three years and then
came back, went to prep school, went to college, went to law school.
ALLISON: Did the navy ever find out that you had forged the paper?
MOAKLEY: No. In fact there’s a group that’s been incorporated, it’s about underage veterans
of World War II.1 I joined up when there was two of them in the Congress, Mike Mansfield,2 the
son of Mike Mansfield, when he was younger. But it was a great experience.
I was taking up sheet metal in South Boston. You know in those days, we had a caste system in
the city of Boston. If your father was a doctor or a lawyer or dentist; you were going to be a
doctor, lawyer or dentist. If your father was a dock worker or a longshoreman or a sheet metal
worker, you were going to be that. I mean there was no crossing. The only opportunity you had
is--when we got out of the service, we had the GI Bill of Rights,3 and some of us took advantage
of it, and broke the mold.
McETTRICK: When you went to South Boston High, did you have any part-time jobs? What
did you do after school?
MOAKLEY: Not really. As I said, I quit there when I was fifteen, so I was in the cooperative
course; that meant that I was taking sheet metal, so they used to send us out to work in some of
the shops at thirty cents an hour, but that was part of the school training.
1
The Veterans of Underage Military Service was incorporated in Ellicott City, Maryland, in 1991 by Allan
Stover. (See http://www.oldvums.com/ for more information)
2
Michael Joseph “Mike” Mansfield (1903-2001), a Democrat, represented Montana in the U.S. House of
Representatives from 1943 to 1953, then in the U.S. Senate from 1953 to 1977. He entered the navy at age 14
during World War I, served for nineteen months, then spent one year in the army and two years in the Marine Corps.
3
The GI Bill of Rights, officially called the Servicemen’s Readjustment Act of 1944, provided, among other
benefits, government compensation for the educational costs of returning World War II veterans.
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
7
�OH-001 Transcript
McETTRICK: Were there any teachers at South Boston High School, parish priests or a cop on
the beat, or anybody in particular that comes to mind when you think about when you were
younger? Anybody that had any influence on you, or someone that you looked up to?
MOAKLEY: Well, yeah, I had one teacher that was a math teacher—and I was kind of an
outspoken kid in high school. They’d call it fresh today. He chastised me a few times, but I had
great respect for him. Even when I was in the service, I’d write him a note or two.
McETTRICK: What parish was the family living in then?
MOAKLEY: Well we went from Saint Augustine’s when we lived on Dorchester Street, to
Saint Monica’s when we lived in the project, and when we moved up to the Point,4 we were in
the (inaudible) parish, Saint Brigid’s.
ALLISON: Where about on the Point did you move to?
MOAKLEY: 5A Bateman Place—it’s upscale now; it’s Bantry Way—and lived there for a
couple of years. I guess it was cheaper to move than to pay rent. We lived in about eight places
in the Ward before we settled down, I guess.
McETTRICK: So did the parishes have many activities for youth in those days, altar boys or—
did you get involved in anything along those lines?
MOAKLEY: Well, as I said, every corner had something.
McETTRICK: So what was your corner? When you think of being on the corner or—
MOAKLEY: When I went to the Thomas N. Hart—it was a junior high school—H and Fifth
Street.
4
The Point, or City Point, area of South Boston is located on the neighborhood’s eastern side.
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McETTRICK: Okay.
MOAKLEY: It was a corner I was—
McETTRICK: That was kind of your home?
MOAKLEY: That was the corner.
ALLISON: Do you ever see any kids that you remember?
MOAKLEY: Yeah. Every once in a while, I bump into—in fact, I remember one time I was
playing golf in Oyster Harbors5 with a friend of mine and he wanted to take me back to show me
his house, and they’re all great houses down there. This fellow was well-off. We walked in,
there were a lady and a man on the ladder fixing a drape, and so I said, “Hi. How are you?” So I
come out, the fellow was down off the ladder. He says, “How you doing?” I said, “Good.” He
says, “You don’t remember me, do you?” I said, “Gee, your face looks familiar, but, you
know—” He said, “Babe Zarillo.” I says, “Babe Zarillo?” I says, “The last time I saw you we
were six years old. We had a fight in Cat Alley. Why would I remember you?” (laughter) You
know, and “I remembered you,” he said. Of course, he would remember; they see you on
television. They hear you on radio.
But people are like that; they figure because they know what you look like, you should know
what they look like, but that happens many times. Someone will say, “Do you remember me?
Do you remember who I am?” and sometimes it’s kind of embarrassing, because you don’t want
to minimize the fellow’s importance. “Gee, I don’t.”
We had a congressman from one of the Midwestern states and he was kind of a hot ticket, and he
was standing in a receiving line and one of the fellows come up—the same thing, grabbed him
5
The Oyster Harbors Club is located in Osterville, MA, which is one of the seven villages of the town of Barnstable
on Cape Cod.
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by the hand, and says, “You know who I am?” He says, “No. But let me get a police officer,
maybe he can help you out.” (laughter)
McETTRICK: So I suppose it must have been the situation when war started and probably a lot
of your buddies were signing up for the Marines or the Navy, the Army, everybody was pretty
much going in, I guess?
MOAKLEY: Oh, if you weren’t around, you just couldn’t imagine it. When the war broke out
in ‘41, ‘42, ‘43, patriotism was flowing in the street. They actually closed recruiting stations, not
because nobody showed up—it’s because too many people showed up. They couldn’t handle it.
I mean if you were walking down the street, and you looked like an able-bodied male, you would
get killer looks from matronly women as much as saying, “Why aren’t you in the service?” You
know, it was a different—and everybody wanted to go. Everybody wanted to stop the madness
going on in Europe.
McETTRICK: So tell us about your signing up. How did that work? Where did you sign up?
Did you have to go over to the army base or what was the—
MOAKLEY: The Fargo Building.6
McETTRICK: The Fargo Building, okay.
MOAKLEY: Well I was running with an older group. I was running with kids two or three
years older than me, because I was kind of a big kid. So I just mentioned to my father one day, I
said, “Geez, you know, they’re going to join the Navy next week. I think I’ll go with them.” He
said, “Okay.” So I come by and next week he drives up and he says, “Are you going someplace
today?” I says, “No, they’re going in town to a movie.” He says, “You’re not.” I says, “What
do you mean?” He says, “Well,” he says, “you said you were going to join the Navy. We got
the papers here for you. Come on, let’s go.”
6
The Fargo Building was located at 451 D Street in South Boston.
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And my father joined the Coast Guard when he was younger, too. It just went in the family.
And I think it was the best thing for me to do at the time, because I was at a crux in my life; if I
didn’t go and I stayed with sheet metal, I may not have got in the proper time and became a
veteran. They give the GI Bill, so I’m one of the people that can say that I really benefited from
World War II.
McETTRICK: So when you actually signed up, you went to the Fargo Building. Did they put
you on a bus or a train, what happened next?
MOAKLEY: We had to go down to Camp Perry, Virginia.
McETTRICK: Okay.
MOAKLEY: And I was in charge of the forty people going down, because I enlisted. So I was
Seaman Second Class; the rest of the people drafted, they were apprentice seamen. So I had to
make sure that everybody was in line. And then when we went down to boot camp. We had
military drill in those years in Boston, the schoolboy parade and all that.
McETTRICK: Oh yes, drills in high school, yeah.
(interruption)
MOAKLEY: Yeah
MCETTRICK: So tell us about boot camp.
MOAKLEY: So we went down to boot camp, and they line us all up, and the drill instructor
says, “Anybody here have any military—have any marching experience?” I said, “Yeah.”
Because we had the schoolboys’ parade. So I became an acting drill instructor at age fifteen, and
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most of these guys were twenty-five or thirty, and, you know, “Your left, your right, the rear
march.” So I did that for a lot of the time I was there.
It was intimidating because no matter how big you are, age is a very, very frightening thing. I
mean when you’ve—people who are five, ten, fifteen years older than you, and you know they
play mind games with you; you’re the boss, and they know you’re only a kid. So I mean it was
not easy, but I got through it all right.
McETTRICK: Did you wind up in the Seabees?
MOAKLEY: I went in the Seabees, because I was color blind. I went in to take the color test,
and I couldn’t fathom it. So they said, Okay, Seabee. I thought they meant color blind, but
it’s—Seabees was just a construction part of the U.S. Navy. So I was assigned to the Stevedore
Battalion, so that we used to go in and load and unload battle cargoes in the station in Pearl
Harbor for about a year. And then we left there and went to Samar in the Philippines and then
we left there, and we went to Japan.
McETTRICK: So when did you finally get out of the Navy? When were you discharged?
MOAKLEY: I got out on February 8, 1946. I did about thirty-five months. Then in those days
there weren’t too many jobs around and most of the guys my age were in the service then. So
my father used his power of persuasion once again to get me into school, which wasn’t my
favorite place to spend any time, but I went, as I said, to undergrad, then law school, and that’s it.
ALLISON: You went to Newman Prep?
MOAKLEY: I went to Newman Prep, yeah, to get my high school marks. And then I went to
the University of Miami for a year, took up sandpit playing and a few other little things.
ALLISON: What brought you down that way?
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MOAKLEY: My father opened a café down there, so I went down there. While I was down
there, I figured I’d look around and get moving, doing something.
McETTRICK: So when you came back from the Navy, what was the political situation like in
South Boston? Who were the political leaders—the senator and the rep? Because you must have
kind of—
MOAKLEY: No, I really wasn’t involved. I was just a kid out of the service, and what do I
know? But the Johnny Powers7 and the Johnny Flahertys8 and Bob Linnehan and these were
the—John Kerrigan9—these were the local politicos.
ALLISON: Bill Bulger10 mentioned the story of you telling him that politics interested you
more than baseball.
MOAKLEY: Oh, yeah, Billy and I grew up in the projects a couple of years apart, but every
once in a while we’d get together. I was already—well, no, I wasn’t involved in politics then—I
just said to him, one time, I said, “You know, I’m more interested in reading the back of political
cards than I am baseball cards.” He said, “Ah! So am I.”
And of course in those days, again, the only activity in the streets were political torchlight
parades. I mean, we couldn’t wait for elections to come by, and you’d see these fifty cars going
by with these red light flares hanging out the window and a big flatbed truck would pull up, and
someone would get up and give a speech, and someone else would contest him. You know, it
was activity. Everybody was attracted to it.
7
John E. Powers (1910-1998), a Democrat, represented South Boston in the Massachusetts House of
Representatives from 1939 to 1946 and in the Massachusetts State Senate from 1947 to 1964. He served as Senate
President from 1959 to 1964.
8
John E. Flaherty (1910-2005), a Democrat, represented South Boston in the Massachusetts House of
Representatives for three terms before being appointed clerk of South Boston District Court in 1945.
9
John E. Kerrigan (1907-1987) was first elected to the Boston City Council in 1933, serving three terms as its
president. He was a member of the council for a total of thirty years and served twice as acting mayor of Boston, in
1938 and 1945. He also served two years in the State Senate.
10
William M. Bulger (1934- ), a Democrat, served in the Massachusetts House of Representatives from 1962 to
1970, in the Massachusetts State Senate from 1970 to 1978 and as State Senate President from 1978 to 1996.
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McETTRICK: How long were you down in Miami? You went to the University of Miami?
MOAKLEY: Just one year.
McETTRICK: One year, and then you came back to South Boston again?
MOAKLEY: Yes.
McETTRICK: Tell us about how you got talked into running for state representative. Was this
someone on the corner, somebody suggested it?
MOAKLEY: No. In fact, I can remember like it was yesterday. I got on a Bayview bus at
Knowlton Street, and I get on and I walked down the back of the bus and I sit down, and there’s
two fellows that I had played football with, Henry Doherty and Martin Carter, and I just got back
from the University of Miami. And of course to them, that was quite a thing, because nobody in
our group, not many people went to college.
So Marty says, “Why don’t you run for city council?” I said, “What?” He says, “Ah! You’re
young, you’re a veteran, someone our age—you know, we got to have somebody represent us,”
and Henry chimed in, he says, “Yeah.” He says, “We need a veteran. Those old guys, they
don’t know.” I wasn’t interested. Then they had some other people who kind of piqued my
curiosity, but I didn’t go for it. The next year they said, “Look it. That state rep’s fight, you got
to go for it; they have more people,” and I finally went for it. And it was a field of fifteen.
McETTRICK: Now was there a vacancy that year?
MOAKLEY: No. It was a field of fifteen and the fellow across the street from me got fourteen
hundred votes, and I lost by 199. The following year I won. I topped the ticket. Ever since then,
I’ve been topping the ticket.
ALLISON: Now were you campaigning in the torchlight parades?
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MOAKLEY: Oh, absolutely. You get up at six o’clock in the morning and start knocking on
the factory gates and the MBTA [Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority] stations, you
know, buttonholing people, knocking the doors. I think the first time I ran for rep, I knocked
about three-quarters of the doors in the community.
ALLISON: Now what kind of issues would you have? You’re telling me you’re a twentythree-year-old guy running for state rep.
MOAKLEY: It’s very simple. When you’re a young kid, you say, “Give a young man a
chance,” and then when you’re there a few years, you go, “Experience counts.” And, you know,
everybody—most people like to give the young guy a chance. Politics, I think, is the only job
that you can almost say experience is not necessary. I mean, they get tired of the guy in there.
They get some fresh-faced kid, and they figure he’s going to solve all the problems and he
probably doesn’t even know what the state house is.
McETTRICK: Would you say that campaigning for representative is pretty much the same
today as it was in 1950 at that level?
MOAKLEY: Well, it’s more slick today. Today you’ve got paid campaign managers, you’ve
got paid pollsters. We would—a poll, I mean, all you would say is, “Please vote for me.”
Period. Issues—if you come from South Boston, it’s got to be labor, you know. You’ve got to
be with the working class.
In fact, when I was a kid, politicians were the guys that put the food on the table sometimes, and
if there’s a big snowstorm and the railroad people were hiring people to shovel snow, if you go
down to your local politician, he’d give you a little white button; you’d put on and you’d go face
the pick-up and the man up there picking the people would be picking all the guys with the white
buttons, because they know that was Representative Kirby’s or Representative Sullivan’s guy.
And, you know, that was a great job. You got about twenty cents an hour. But the politician was
very much in the socioeconomic fiber of the community.
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McETTRICK: Now when you ran, did you run in [wards] six and seven or was it just your own
ward?
MOAKLEY: No. In those days ward seven had two reps. Ward six had one, so I ran in a
double field, and it was Billy Carr11 and Jimmy Condon were the incumbents, and then Billy
Carr ran for school committee. Then there was an opening, then I took the opening.
McETTRICK: I think I saw somewhere in your website or someplace, describing the point at
which you were a lifeguard at Carson Beach?12
MOAKLEY: Yeah, one summer.
McETTRICK: Was that after you came back from the service?
MOAKLEY: Yes. The first summer or something.
McETTRICK: Of course, like everything else I suppose, it helped to have someone’s
endorsement.
MOAKLEY: Oh, sure. Sure. Yeah. Get a letter from the senator, yeah.
McETTRICK: So then you went to the state house, finally, in ‘52, and what was the situation
up there? Was it still Republican-controlled in the state house then?
MOAKLEY: Yeah. When I got elected, Herter13 had just taken over. He beat Dever14 for
governor. I think we had a Republican—yeah. Tip O’Neill15 had been a Democrat—Tip
11
William F. Carr (1910-1988), a Democrat, represented South Boston in the Massachusetts House of
Representatives before being elected to the Boston School Committee in 1953, where he served until 1958.
12
Carson Beach is located on the South Boston shoreline of Dorchester Bay.
13
Christian A. Herter (1895-1966), a Republican, served in the Massachusetts House of Representatives from 1931
to 1942, then represented the Massachusetts’ Tenth Congressional District in the U.S. House of Representatives
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O’Neill was the Democratic speaker. In 1952 he left the Mass. House and went to the U.S.
House. Jack Kennedy16 left the U.S. House and went to the U.S. Senate. And I got elected to the
Mass. House.
McETTRICK: So what were the issues up there in the state house in those days? That was the
240-member House. That was a really kind of a wild place I guess, in many ways.
MOAKLEY: Oh, yeah.
McETTRICK: What do you remember of that?
MOAKLEY: Well it was kind of wild, and politics was very tough and everybody was very
lockstep for their party’s position, and if the Democrats had more people, they’d win the vote. If
the Republicans had more people, it was very hard to switch anybody on some of those issues.
McETTRICK: Oh, so it was very close between the parties?
MOAKLEY: Of course, it’s a long way back. I forget what it was now, but it was a great
learning place. You could watch some of the—there was a lot of debates in those days.
McETTRICK: So then you were in the House for several years?
from 1943 to 1953. He then served two terms as governor of Massachusetts, from 1953 to 1957, and as United
States Secretary of State from 1959 to 1961.
14
Paul A. Dever (1903-1958), a Democrat, served in the Massachusetts House of Representatives from 1929 to
1935 and as governor of Massachusetts from 1949 to 1953.
15
Thomas P. “Tip” O’Neill (1912-1994), a Democrat, represented Massachusetts’ Eleventh and, after redistricting,
Eighth Congressional Districts in the United States House of Representatives from 1953 to 1987. He served as
Speaker of the House of Representatives from 1977 to 1987. He also served in the Massachusetts House of
Representatives from 1936 to 1952.
16
John F. Kennedy (1917-1963), a Democrat, represented Massachusetts’ Eleventh Congressional District in the
U.S. House of Representatives from 1947 to 1953, then represented Massachusetts in the U.S. Senate from 1953 to
1960, when he was elected president.
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MOAKLEY: I was in the House from ‘52 to ‘60. My last term I was the Majority Whip. Then
I ran for the Senate against Senate president John Powers, which wasn’t too smart, but, you
know, I did it anyway, and I was successfully defeated. And I was out for four years.
McETTRICK: Who was the speaker you were the Whip for?
MOAKLEY: John Thompson.17
McETTRICK: John Thompson. And he reigned for quite a while as House Speaker?
MOAKLEY: Oh, yeah. But I just had it, and it was eight years and it was tough. So I ran for
the Senate. I lost and four years later John Powers got appointed to some clerk’s job, and I’d
been out of office for four years now, so I ran for the Senate and took every precinct in every
ward against incumbents, after being out for four years. And I liked the Senate very much.
Of course, you could do more, because you had more staff. Then one day I find out that John
McCormack18 is not running for reelection. I think he announced on a Monday he was not a
candidate. I announced on a Tuesday I was, and of course, all I had was a little piece of the
district, just a senator from South Boston. And Louise Day Hicks,19 who was a very known
figure for years, the front page of all the papers, cover of national magazines on the busing
situation,20 and it was a very tough fight, and I lost that one. Then I decided that Louise Day
Hicks could get one-third of the vote in any primary because of her stand and what people
17
John Thompson (1920-1965), a Democrat, served in the Massachusetts State House of Representatives from 1948
to 1964. He served as Speaker of the House from 1957 to 1964.
18
John W. McCormack (1891-1990), a Democrat, represented Massachusetts’ Twelfth and, after redistricting, Ninth
Congressional Districts in the United States House of Representatives from 1928 to 1971. He served as Speaker of
the House from 1962 to 1971.
19
Louise Day Hicks (1916-2003), a Democrat, served on the Boston School Committee from 1962 to 1967 (serving
as chair from 1963 to 1965), ran unsuccessfully for the mayoralty of Boston in 1967 and in 1971, and served on the
Boston City Council before being elected to the United States House of Representatives in 1970. She represented
Massachusetts’ Ninth Congressional District for one term.
20
In his June 21, 1974, opinion in the case of Tallulah Morgan et al. v. James Hennigan et al. (379 F. Supp. 410).
Judge W. Arthur Garrity ruled that the Boston School Committee had “intentionally brought about and maintained
racial segregation” in the Boston Public Schools. When the school committee did not submit a workable
desegregation plan as the opinion had required, the court established a plan that called for some students to be bused
from their own neighborhoods to attend schools in other neighborhoods, with the goal of creating racial balance in
the Boston Public Schools. (See http://www.lib.umb.edu/archives/garrity2.html for more information)
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thought of her. So I lost to her in ‘70. In ‘72, when the fight was coming up again, I sat down
and tried to get some of the people who were running. I said, “Look it, let’s take a straw.
Nobody is going to beat her if we put this kind of field out there.”
Well, everybody had their own stairway to the stars and they said, No, no. I said, “Okay.” So I
just stepped out. I ran as an Independent. In those days you could still be enrolled as a
Democrat and run as an Independent. In fact, they changed the law because of what happened to
me. (laughter) In fact, I voted for Louise Day Hicks in that primary because if anybody won but
her my whole strategy would have went down the drain. So when she was having a victory party
in the primary; I was having a victory party in the primary. And then the—my strategy turned
out to be right. So when the election came, I won by about thirty-five hundred votes.
McETTRICK: Would you say that busing really was, if not the issue, was really the driving
force underneath that election?
MOAKLEY: Well, yeah. Busing—but yeah, I was against busing too, but I just couldn’t march
in the streets and scream and holler like some of the people were doing it, and that cost me, but
hey.
ALLISON: Did it gain you anything with other people in the district?
MOAKLEY: I don’t think so. On a Monday, I was picketed by six hundred whites. On a
Tuesday, I was picketed by six hundred blacks. You know, I’m saying, “Where am I going
here?” What happened was I lost—not that year—I lost South Boston one year, after I was in
the Congress during busing, because a fellow running against me was, “You got to absolutely
stop busing.”
McETTRICK: What would you say about that whole era? What did that do to South Boston?
MOAKLEY: Oh, it split people up and many well-intentioned people—some of them are really
not able to articulate properly—you know, were labeled as bigots, and then there were other
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people who wanted to do the right thing, and they were almost thrown out of their homes. It was
the worst political time that I have ever gone through in my life. Some days, I just didn’t want to
get up in the morning and put my shoes on. It was terrible, getting calls all during the night.
I had one young lady I went to the prom with—there were four of us. She just spat as I walked
by one day. You know, those things are hard to take for me. Most people in this business want
to be liked, and just to have people that you had a great friendship with and because of this—
they’re so involved and they can’t see anything but their point. It’s tough.
(interruption)
McETTRICK: So you finally got elected in ‘72? And you went down to Washington?
MOAKLEY: Mm-hmm.
McETTRICK: And John McCormack was no longer Speaker at that point?
MOAKLEY: No. He couldn’t be Speaker if I got elected. I took his place.
McETTRICK: That was his seat?
MOAKLEY: Yeah.
McETTRICK: So who took over?
MOAKLEY: Carl Albert21 was the Speaker. But there was a little byplay. When I was running
as an Independent, to some it was heresy that I gave up the party. I said, “I didn’t give up the
party.” “Yeah, but you’re not running as a Democrat.” As a result, Louise Day Hicks was
21
Carl Albert (1908-2000), a Democrat, represented Oklahoma’s Third Congressional District in the U.S. House of
Representatives from 1947 to 1977. He served as Speaker of the House from 1971 to 1977.
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running for re-election as a Democrat. So she got the endorsement on the radio and TV from
John McCormack, Tip O’Neill.
And so I’m fighting—and I bump into Tip one day, and I said, “Yeah, I’m running for
Congress.” He said, “You’ll never make it.” He said, “Nobody will want an Independent.” I
said, “I’m going to make it. I’m going to be down there.” He says, “No, you won’t.” He says,
“Kid, you’re drawing on a great reputation. You got a great reputation as a Democratic senator.”
He said, “I don’t know whatever made you run as an Independent.”
So I said to him—of course, he didn’t understand the situation. So when I get elected, and I went
down to Congress, Tip has got all the freshmen together in the room. He was seeking some
votes—I don’t know if it was for Whip or Majority Leader—and every time he’d see me, he’d
look the other way. He figured, “This guy is going to kill me.” So finally when he couldn’t
move away, I just went over to him, I put out my hand, and I says, “Tip, I’m with you.” I says,
“I understand the game. The ins are ins and the outs are outs.” I said, “I’m in now.” He put a
big smile on. He put his arm around me, and he says, “You sure are;” the beginning of a great,
great friendship. He became my mentor. He became my guardian down there. He ushered me
on to the chairman of the Democratic Personnel Committee, who channels all the jobs down
there, then went to Carl Albert and had me assigned to the Rules Committee my second term;22
that’s how I moved up.
McETTRICK: That was the year Vietnam was really going strong?
MOAKLEY: Oh, yeah!
McETTRICK: Tell us about how that impacted you both in South Boston and in your role as a
congressman.
22
Congressman Moakley was a member of the House Rules Committee from 1975 to 2001 and served as its
chairman from 1989 to 1995.
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MOAKLEY: Well I was ambivalent. I was strongly, you know, “My country, right or wrong.”
And then I listened to some of the protesters, and then I listened to some of the college kids, and
then I started changing. And Tip was the guy that really made the change, because Tip was
[President] Johnson’s right-hand man, and he just—I remember one time, there’s a book that Tip
is speaking about at Boston College, and the thing came up about Vietnam, and he said, “Look it,
I’ve been briefed by generals. I’ve been briefed by everybody. I know we’re doing the right
thing over there.” And there was a kid named Patrick McCarthy [who] stood up. He said, “Have
you been briefed by the other side?” And he thought about it, and he thought about it, and then
he went out with some of these generals, got them half-drunk and started getting the truth out of
them and finding that a lot of the figures were falsified that they were giving, and then he
changed his mind, and he and Johnson had a falling out. It was very, very tough.
ALLISON: Now that must have been a—you’re a Navy veteran from South Boston; coming
out against the war must have been a difficult thing?
MOAKLEY: It was, but by that time, I think people started changing. It wasn’t—I remember
down here on the docks, where students were thrown overboard by longshoremen, because they
were Communists and all that stuff. And we were subjected to the terms—I mean, you’re either
a pinko or a right-winger—I mean, terms that really don’t mean a hell of a lot, but they can
squeeze you into it, and make a big fight out of it. It was very difficult.
ALLISON: How do you avoid it? I mean, you managed to—
MOAKLEY: Oh, no, I came out—when I got elected, I ran on the McGovern-Meek23
amendment, and I wanted to pull our troops out, that we’ve been there long enough, and, you
know, I saw what happened to O’Neill. And I figured, hey, we’re just spinning our wheels, lost
a lot of our kids, over fifty thousand kids, and get nothing out of it.
23
The amendment to which Moakley is referring is the McGovern-Hatfield amendment, which was proposed in
1970 with the stipulation that U.S. troops be withdrawn from Vietnam by the end of 1970. The amendment failed.
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McETTRICK: Did you detect at some point that the veterans’ groups in Boston started to
change their position or their outlook on the war? I mean, what—as a congressman, what could
you see happening in the community?
MOAKLEY: Well, the veterans’ groups were not all together. Some of them had some
different feelings. But, you know, you couldn’t just take how the veterans are feeling on the war,
because this didn’t just affect veterans, it affected everybody. So it’s not like some other issues
that really directly affect veterans. I mean, this is a fact, that mothers and fathers and kids who
are waiting on that draft list to go overseas.
McETTRICK: So did you get a lot of constituent reaction, finally, on the war? Did you get
letters and phone calls?
MOAKLEY: Oh, yeah. I got a lot of—but I had made up my mind that we’d been there long
enough. Had I gotten elected two years sooner, I might have been just the other way, but in that
two years, there was just a turn in the war.
McETTRICK: So you could bring a somewhat different perspective to it, that things are
starting to change?
MOAKLEY: That’s right, yeah, and as a veteran, you know, when you speak—I mean, if
you’re a non-veteran and you say, “Hey, let’s get out of there.” They’re [saying], Oh, what do
you know? You know, but if you’re a veteran, they give you a little leeway, and I was given that
leeway.
McETTRICK: So the Personnel Committee, and then where did you go from there in terms
of—
MOAKLEY: The Rules Committee. See, the Personnel Committee handled all the patronage
jobs down there. So every member of Congress who had to put someone to work down there
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had to come to Joe Moakley, and I’d get to know a lot of people very quick. In fact, we had
more kids with a Boston accent on the police department down there than anywhere else.
O’Neill used to kid me, he said, “Geez, I thought I was back in Brattle Square with all these
Boston accents down there.” But it gave me a great opportunity to show people who I was, and
then on the Rules Committee, of course every bill has to go to the Rules Committee. It’s a
Speaker’s committee and from—so many chairmen of the committee want to make sure that
members of the Rules Committee are happy with their presentation of their bill, otherwise it
doesn’t get out. Because if the Rules Committee says no, the bill just doesn’t go to the floor. So
I made a lot of friends in that committee.
ALLISON: One of the big issues during your first term was the impeachment of President
Nixon?24
MOAKLEY: Yeah. Yeah. As a matter of fact, I remember sitting—I used to spend a lot of
time with Tip then. I remember sitting with Jimmy Breslin25 and talking about what’s going on,
and Jimmy Breslin would be like sitting in a corner with his eyes closed, and the next you’d pick
up the column written by him word for word for word. Great, great mind. In fact, he just called
me a couple of weeks ago. But I remember O’Neill sending for Peter Rodino,26 and Tip, at the
time, felt that the Judiciary Committee wasn’t moving quick enough.
And, of course, everybody knew that Nixon was capable of many things, so people thought
maybe he may have had something. O’Neill, calling on Rodino, he said, “Pete, how’s the
investigation going?” “Well, okay.” He says, “Does Nixon have anything on you?” He said,
“What do you mean?” “Just what I said. So anything that you’re afraid is going to come out if
you go ahead with it.” He said, “No, not a thing, Mr. Speaker, honest to God.” He said, “Well
get off your ass and get going.” I mean—and he was the one who prodded him, because nobody
24
Impeachment proceedings for President Richard Nixon (1913-1994) began in May of 1974; Nixon resigned the
presidency in August of 1974 before the proceedings were complete.
25
Jimmy Breslin (1929- ) is an American columnist and author.
26
Peter Rodino (1909-2005), a Democrat, represented New Jersey’s Tenth Congressional District in the U.S. House
of Representatives from 1949 to 1989. He was chairman of the House Judiciary Committee from 1973 to 1989 and
also of the impeachment hearings for President Nixon.
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likes to impeach a president. I mean in those days, you know—and so the thing just started
going down. But it was Tip O’Neill who—he wasn’t the Speaker at the time, I think he was the
Majority Leader—it was his prodding that moved that investigation forward.
McETTRICK: What do you think it was that did it, that really was the catalyst that made that
whole impeachment action in the committee? It seemed to be going on for a while, and then all
of a sudden—
MOAKLEY: Well, I think that that was one of them, and I think that O’Neill spoke to other
people and said, “Look it. I don’t care what the results are; get moving on this thing. We want
something happening. We don’t want this thing to die on the vine.” And I think that people
started making moves.
McETTRICK: Now how much contact had you had with the president? I suppose for a
congressman it’s a rare opportunity, especially if you’re in the other party.
MOAKLEY: Well I didn’t have any contact with Nixon, because I didn’t like Nixon. I just
didn’t like the things that I read about, what I saw him doing. In fact, that was the first year I
was invited to the president’s Christmas Ball, and I didn’t go. I felt nothing for Nixon. I just
thought he was just too tough on this thing and too unforgiving. Very paranoid, too.
Tip used to say, “You know, you can tell a lot about a guy if you play poker with him.” He says,
“Nixon and Carter were probably the two brightest presidents we ever had. I mean, if you talk
with them on issues, they could go right down to sub-section and they knew everything.” He
said, “But they’re not my types of people.” And he says, “I didn’t like Carter and I didn’t like
Nixon.” “Nixon, I played poker with,” he said, “and he just didn’t handle himself properly.
He’d get awful upset when he loses and throw the cards down, you know?”
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ALLISON: What about Gerald Ford,27 who was a member of Congress when you were—
MOAKLEY: Yeah. I didn’t know Gerald. That was when I was brand new. I didn’t know
Gerald, but Gerald Ford and Tip were very, very friendly. They’d have very partisan debates on
the floor of the House. There’d be blood all over the place, but when the bell rang, it was all
over. That night they’d be out drinking. That weekend, they and their wives would be out
golfing somewhere, not like today where the message and the messenger gets so confused that
the incivility just runs rampant up there. But I liked Ford, and Tip liked Ford, too.
McETTRICK: Did you like living in Washington? Where did you stay when you were down
there during the session? Did you move around over the years?
MOAKLEY: No. I bought a place down there, and even though I didn’t spend many weekends
there, I figured I’d better buy down there, because the rents were just so prohibitive. And we
don’t have—we’re only given three thousand a year in expenses. It’s Congress. I mean, we’re
not treated like salesmen or anything else. We get killed on that thing, so I figured I’d buy
something down there. In ‘77 I bought a place; I still have it.
ALLISON: So you have two houses; one there?
MOAKLEY: Yeah.
ALLISON: And would Evelyn28 go down to that one?
MOAKLEY: She’d go down. Sometimes she’d stay down, and sometimes she’d stay up here.
We kind of split it up.
McETTRICK: When did you first meet Evelyn?
27
Gerald Ford (1913-2006), a Republican, represented Michigan’s Fifth Congressional District in the U.S. House of
Representatives from 1949 to 1973, when he was nominated vice president after the resignation of Spiro Agnew.
He became president in 1974 after Richard Nixon’s resignation and served as president until 1977.
28
Evelyn (Duffy) Moakley (1927-1996) was Congressman Moakley’s wife. They married in 1957.
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MOAKLEY: I first met Evelyn in 1950. It was my first state rep’s fight, and I went to a party
in Cambridge, and she came from Cambridge. A bunch of us men from South Boston, and there
were a couple of tables—it was a club, but there were different functions going on in the club.
So one of the fellows in my group got up and went over to ask her to dance, and Evelyn was
taller than this fellow, so she just felt uncomfortable. So she said no. So I figured I’d show him
up, so I went over and asked her to dance, and she danced, and here we are.
McETTRICK: Was she politically inclined?
MOAKLEY: Oh, no.
McETTRICK: Could she tolerate politics?
MOAKLEY: She didn’t like politics at all; that was one of the big arguments we used to have,
because, you know, I’d be away all week, and then I’d come back, and I’d have to go to banquets
Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday. You know, “What about me?” Politics is a jealous
mistress, too. I mean, it really takes the man out of the house or the candidate out of the house.
You know, you have to have a strong marriage to stay together. I’ve seen many of them break
up just because they’re just apart so much.
McETTRICK: So when did you finally get married? Was it pretty soon or did it take a while?
MOAKLEY: Oh, it took a while, because—well, I wanted to graduate from law school. I
wanted to pass the bar, and I did. So in 1957 I passed the bar, graduated from law—became
Majority Whip, and then we got married.
ALLISON: She was willing to wait for you all those years?
MOAKLEY: No. (laughter)
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McETTRICK: You have to tell us about Suffolk University Law School. Did you go at night?
MOAKLEY: Oh, I sure did.
McETTRICK: Why don’t you tell us a little bit about—what was that like?
MOAKLEY: Oh, it was great. I went to law school nights. I’d just leave the state house right
across the street, go out the back door and in that class we had about five to six state reps.
Jimmy Linnehan29 of course was a CPA at the time, and Jeanne Hession,30 and we kind of
bonded. We’d go to school and then we’d go out and have a drink or something afterwards, and
we all had our own different life. We all had daytime jobs, but they say that class of ‘56 was
probably tighter than most classes for some reason.
But Jeanne Hession had a great knack of taking notes, and so she used to supply her notes, and I
think her notes probably got half the class through law school. So we felt we should do
something because she was so good, so we campaigned and made her the first female president
of the law school—the law school class. And we remain friends till today.
McETTRICK: So you were in the older building, the Archer Building?31
MOAKLEY: Yes.
McETTRICK: They hadn’t even built the Donahue Building32 at that time?
MOAKLEY: No.
29
James F. Linnehan, Sr., was a classmate and close friend of Moakley’s and is a member of Suffolk University’s
board of trustees. OH-065 in the John Joseph Moakley Oral History Project is an interview with Mr. Linnehan.
30
Jeanne Hession was a classmate and close friend of Moakley’s and is a member of Suffolk University’s board of
trustees. OH-015 in the John Joseph Moakley Oral History Project is an interview with Ms. Hession.
31
Suffolk University’s Gleason L. and Hiram J. Archer Building, named after the university’s founder and his
brother, is located at 20 Derne Street in Boston, across from the back entrance to the Massachusetts State House.
32
Suffolk University’s Frank J. Donahue Building, named after a judge and former faculty member, trustee, and
treasurer of Suffolk University, is located at 41 Temple Street in Boston, down the street from the Archer Building.
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McETTRICK: So things were pretty crowded. They must have had a lot of GIs who had come
back?
MOAKLEY: Oh, yeah.
McETTRICK: The place must have been bursting.
MOAKLEY: Oh, yeah. This was a veterans’ class, because, you know, the law, and we
started—I think we started about ‘52 or ‘53. Yeah.
McETTRICK: Anyone that you recall from that era, particularly in terms of the faculty or other
people that you encountered at the school?
MOAKLEY: Yeah. I remember Dean O’Brien.33
McETTRICK: John F. X.?
MOAKLEY: John F.X. was a professor, and then there was a great law—a criminal professor,
who had a great sense of humor. I forget his name. Then we had a fellow named Williams,34
who was a contracts lawyer and a great, great teacher. And then there was a young fellow a
couple of years ahead of us, that I knew was going to go someplace; his name was Dave
Sargent.35 (laughter) But they were nice people. I think when you go nights, you know,
everybody is in the same—I mean, we went with people who had been from Worcester, and
newspaper writers, and I mean everybody. The class was so mixed up.
McETTRICK: So did you have much chance to study, you know, with your whole day in the
House? You must have been really pressed for time.
33
John F. X. O’Brien was a member of Suffolk’s law school faculty from 1948 to 1976 and served as dean of the
law school from 1952 to 1956.
34
Kenneth Williams (1902-1980) was a graduate of Suffolk Law School (JD ’27) and member of the law school
faculty from 1928 to 1958.
35
David J. Sargent graduated from Suffolk Law School in 1954, then served as a law faculty member from 1956 to
1973, dean of the law school from 1973 to 1989, and has been president of Suffolk University since 1989.
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MOAKLEY: No. Yeah, we studied as much as we could, but, you know, it probably wouldn’t
come up to academic standards today.
McETTRICK: So you kind of sit in the back a little bit and hope you didn’t get called on?
MOAKLEY: Oh, absolutely. (laughter) “Please, don’t call on me.”
McETTRICK: I saw on your diploma that it was signed by John F.X. O’Brien. What was the
graduation—what was that like? You probably barely recall that.
MOAKLEY: I don’t. I don’t.
McETTRICK: It was just one of many things happening to you at that point?
MOAKLEY: Yeah. Yeah. In fact, there were so many things jammed into my life at one time
that I forgot where the graduation was now.
McETTRICK: And then you sat for the bar exam.
MOAKLEY: Oh, yeah.
McETTRICK: Were you relieved to finally get through that experience?
MOAKLEY: Oh, absolutely. I had to take it twice. That bothered me that I had to take it
twice, but then I figured well, going nights and missing so many classes, what the hell; I was
lucky to get it that time. But it was—the greatest feeling is when someone says, “You’ve passed
the bar.”
McETTRICK: Relief.
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ALLISON: Did you ever practice law?
MOAKLEY: Oh, yeah. I practiced from ‘57 to ‘70. I practiced out of my own office, and
being in public office, it was just so natural and people were coming to me, because they thought
I was a lawyer for twenty years, anyway.
ALLISON: I know some people in South Boston who run for office just to publicize their law
practice.
MOAKLEY: Oh, sure. In those days, that was the only way you could advertise. Now you can
advertise any way.
McETTRICK: So you started to talk about your reflections on the various presidents; I guess
we should ask you a little bit about that. You told us a lot about Nixon and then Gerry Ford went
in there. It was a tough time.
MOAKLEY: Yeah.
McETTRICK: How did you think he did under the circumstances?
MOAKLEY: I think he did what he had to do. Even though I didn’t like Nixon at all, I think he
had to pardon Nixon. He couldn’t keep that thing going. It was like an open sore. And that cost
him the election. I got along with Carter okay, but Carter just brought the Georgia mentality up,
and he thought that the same guys that were so successful around him in Georgia would be—do
the same job in D.C., and of course they didn’t do it. And then when he locked himself into the
White House in that cardigan sweater during the hostage trial, all he did every day was just
remind people of how impotent we were in that situation. A terrible thing.
I liked George Bush, senior, Tip liked him very much, and I thought he was a nice guy. Of
course, you have to separate them personality and politically. Of course, there were many
political things I didn’t care for, but you just can’t judge a person by his politics every time you
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see him. Like when I had—when GW [George Walker Bush] signed the bill in the Rose Garden
for naming the courthouse after me,36 I had him for about ten minutes in the oval room, and I
was just kidding with him a little bit, and he’s got a great sense of humor. You know, I thought
he might be stiff and all. Off camera and, you know, head-to-head, he’s a pretty funny guy.
McETTRICK: How about Ronald Reagan? Did you have much contact with him?
MOAKLEY: Well, yeah, Ronald Reagan used to credit himself as being an Irish storyteller. I
remember one time I had a bill on the floor and Speaker O’Neill was in the chair, so after I
finished speaking, he beckons me down to the podium. I says, “How you doing?” He says,
“Good.” He says, “I just left Reagan.” He says, “You know, every Wednesday we meet. We
talk about the world affairs. We talk about the legislative programs. We talk about everything.”
He says, “But before we start, we always start with some kind of an Irish story or joke or
something. The president says, “Tip, I got a great one for you.” He starts telling the story. Tip
says, “I put my hand on his hand, and I said, ‘Mr. President, Joe Moakley’s been telling that for
thirty years.’“ (laughter)
Now here’s how the story goes, so you could tell by the content: It was the end of World War II,
Hitler knows he’s losing the war, and he calls his top spy to his side. He says, “Look it, we got a
spy over in Dublin, Ireland. His name is Murphy. He’s got some information on the English.”
He says, “I think if we get that information, we implement it, we can stop all combat on that
side.” He said, “But this Murphy is a top spy.” He says, “In order to get to him, you have to
give him the password, and it’s got to be exact or he won’t answer.” He says, “The password is
the grass is green, the moon is high, and the cows are ready for milking.” The guy says, “I got
it.”
One dark night he parachutes—he flies over Dublin, parachutes in and lands in a field, buries his
parachute, and he’s walking through the field and he comes upon the farmer. The farmer says,
“Can I help you?” He says, “Yeah.” He says, “I’m looking for Murphy.” He says, “You’re
36
On March 13, 2001, President George W. Bush signed Public Law No. 107-2 naming the U.S. courthouse on
South Boston’s Fan Pier the John Joseph Moakley United States Courthouse.
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looking for Murphy?” He says, “You’re in Dublin. We’ve got Murphy the plumber, Murphy the
undertaker, Murphy the sail maker and Murphy the butcher, Murphy the baker. In fact, I’m
Murphy the farmer.” He says, “You’re Murphy the farmer?” He says, “Yeah.” He shakes him
by the ear. He looks in his eyes. He says, “The grass is green, the moon is high, and the cows
are ready for milking.” He says, “You want Murphy the spy. He lives over the delicatessen
downtown.” (laughter) So that’s the story.
McETTRICK: Did you ever have a chance to go over to Ireland yourself?
MOAKLEY: Oh, sure. I went with Tip a couple of times.
McETTRICK: Did you really?
MOAKLEY: We went up to visit his home where his great aunt was born. We met with John
Hume,37 met with Ian Paisley.38 In fact, I remember when we were going from Ireland up to
Northern Ireland, and I remember when we were landing, we were in helicopters and the
constabulary there had these dogs with their big white teeth gnashing and there’s all kind of
warlike souvenirs all over the place.
So the head security guy says, “Mr. Speaker, you and Mrs. O’Neill will come with me in this
bulletproof car. It’s got seven-eighths high end on the bottom bulletproof.” He says,
“Congressman Moakley, you come with me in the lead car.” I says, “Now I know how those
pigs felt running over those mine fields in Russia.” (laughter) But it was quite a trip. We really
met some funny people and talked to a lot of very bright people up there.
McETTRICK: So how do you think they’re going to make out over there?
MOAKLEY: Well I hope—I hope—in fact, I talked to John Hume a couple of weeks ago—that
they can get back together again. It’s a shame to come this far and then blow it. It’s small
37
John Hume (1937- ) is a former politician in Northern Ireland and founding member of the Social Democratic and
Labour Party.
38
Ian Paisley (1926- ) was the leader of the Democratic Unionist Party in Northern Ireland from 1971 to 2008.
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things, but, you know, you’ve got to forget something, if you’re going to go forward. It’s like
having a fight with your wife on the honeymoon; if you’re going to start every argument with
that fight on the honeymoon, nothing’s ever going to get solved.
McETTRICK: Can you tell us about Tip O’Neill’s becoming the Speaker? How did that all
come about?
MOAKLEY: Well Tip—it was a very strange way. Tip O’Neill was Majority Leader. No.
No. He wasn’t. I’m sorry. Carl Albert was Speaker. Lindy Boggs39 [sic-Hale Boggs] was
Majority Leader, and now they had to pick—at that time they picked the Speaker—the Whip,
I’m sorry. So Lindy Boggs went into Carl Albert. He says, “All right. I got the selection for
Whip.” He says, “Who is it?” He says, “Danny Rostenkowski.”40 Carl Albert says, “No way,
Danny Rostenkowski. The way he embarrassed me at that Chicago convention when Daley said,
‘Go up and take that gavel away,’ and he took that gavel away, there’s no way he’s going to get
it.”41 He said, “Well, gee,” he says, “That’s my”—“I don’t care what your choice is. Go out and
get somebody else.”
So then he went and he looked and it was between Boland42 and O’Neill, and Boland got it. But
if Danny Rostenkowski hadn’t taken that gavel away, O’Neill never would have been heard
from. That’s the way this thing happened. So O’Neill gets the Whip’s job. Then there was Nick
39
Corinne Claiborne “Lindy” Boggs (1916- ), a Democrat, represented Louisiana’s Third Congressional District in
the U.S. House of Representatives from 1973 to 1991. She succeeded her husband, Hale Boggs (1914-1972), in
Congress after he was presumed dead in a plane disappearance over Alaska in 1972. Hale Boggs, not Lindy, was
House Majority Leader beginning in 1971, a role that he held at the time of his presumed death. Hale had been in
Congress since 1941.
40
Daniel Rostenkowski (1928- ), a Democrat, represented Illinois’ Eighth Congressional District in the U.S. House
of Representatives from 1959 to 1993 and the Fifth Congressional District from 1993 to 1995.
41
Carl Albert was chair of the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago, during which proceedings
became raucous due to the turbulent political atmosphere, combined with the fact that House Speaker Albert was
suffering from laryngitis and hearing problems due to a cold. President Lyndon Johnson, watching the disorder on
television, called Chicago Mayor Richard Daley and asked him to restore order. Mayor Daley asked Dan
Rostenkowski to reclaim order, which he did by taking away Albert’s gavel. There are conflicting stories as to
whether Rostenkowski asked Albert for the gavel or physically grabbed it from him.
42
Edward P. Boland (1911-2001), a Democrat, represented Massachusetts’ Second Congressional District in the
U.S. House of Representatives from 1953 to 1989.
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Begich,43 who was the congressman from Alaska, and he had Hale Boggs take a ride up on some
kind of a campaign trip and the plane went down. So now O’Neill goes from Whip to Majority
Leader.
Then Carl Albert was a little guy, but he just didn’t seem comfortable as the Speaker. He just
lasted a couple of terms, and he got out. O’Neill became the Speaker. So it was from almost
nowhere to Speaker, you know, in a very short period of time, but he was a great Speaker, and I
think he was the Speaker for about ten years. And he handled the job very well.
ALLISON: Now you were at the 1968 convention? Do you have any—
MOAKLEY: I sure was. Oh! All I can remember is the stink bombs and the smelly urine and
the broken windows on the stores and the crowds in the street throwing barrels through them. It
was like being at Checkpoint Charlie.44 Every bus going to the convention had a police car
behind it and a police car in front of it. Every bridge there were police with rifles on the bridge.
It was a scary, scary thing. And it was a terrible situation, but—
McETTRICK: It was for the good of the country when Johnson announced that he wouldn’t
run for reelection. We had a couple of assassinations?
MOAKLEY: Yup.
McETTRICK: How about Bobby Kennedy? Did you ever have any contact with him?
Because he was really one of the main players there in ’68.
MOAKLEY: Yeah. I met him. I wasn’t close. As I said, in ‘68, I wasn’t even in the Congress.
I was a state senator. So it was just kind of a different relationship. You know, people in public
43
Nicholas Begich (1932-1972) represented Alaska’s At-Large District in the U.S. House of Representatives from
1971 until his presumed death, along with Congressman Hale Boggs of Louisiana, in a plane crash over Alaska in
1972.
44
Checkpoint Charlie was the name given by the Western Allies during the Cold War to an area in Germany where
East Berlin and West Berlin met in the neighborhood of Friedrichstadt.
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office didn’t join—if they’re on the same level, they can get together a lot easier than people on
lower levels.
ALLISON: Who were you supporting in ‘68?
MOAKLEY: McGovern. Yeah. Was it McGovern in ‘68?
ALLISON: Well he came in after Bobby Kennedy’s assassination. Was it McCarthy or
Humphrey?
MOAKLEY: Must have been Humphrey.45 But I was with McGovern when he ran the
presidential primary up here.46
McETTRICK: Yeah, that was ‘72.
MOAKLEY: It was ‘72. Yeah.
(interruption)
ALLISON: And what effect did this have on the party in Massachusetts or in the country?
MOAKLEY: Well, in ‘72 McGovern took Massachusetts by storm, and I happened to be with
McGovern, because I was, you know, not taking the orthodox route to the Congress. I was
running as an Independent, and I can remember talking to some of the senators. And they said,
“Have you lost your mind? He hasn’t got a chance.” Then the day after election, they’re all out,
and I’m in, you know?
45
Hubert Humphrey (1911-1978), a Democrat, represented Minnesota in the U.S. Senate from 1949 to 1964 and
from 1971 to 1978. He served as vice president under Lyndon B. Johnson from 1965 to 1969. He was the
Democratic presidential nominee in the 1968 election, but lost to Richard Nixon.
46
George McGovern (1922- ), a Democrat, represented South Dakota’s First Congressional District in the U.S.
House of Representatives from 1957 to 1961, and then represented South Dakota in the U.S. Senate from 1963 to
1981. He was the Democratic presidential in the 1972 election, but lost to incumbent Richard Nixon.
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But he was very exciting. A lot of people think he was just a peacenik, but he was a bomber in
World War II. He had earned his stripes, but that was a very different type. I remember we
started with Lindsay47 and then Lindsay gave up, and then McGovern—and it did change, and I
guess the only state McGovern took was Massachusetts.
McETTRICK: You know there’s so many things to really ask you about. One topic that we
put on our list was, if you could just tell us about the Big Dig;48 your involvement with that.
There are so many federal projects that you’ve had a hand in, in Massachusetts, and it all has to
go through those funnel points in Congress, but the saga with the Big Dig I think, is something
that people will be talking about for years, both in its origins and now in its completion. What
can you tell us about that?
MOAKLEY: Well, remember, in the eighties when Fred Salvucci49 came down and talked to
O’Neill and myself about the Big Dig, and he says, “This is great. It’s only going to cost 2.9
billion dollars.” So we weren’t too happy with that; that was like a lot of money; and then as it
escalated, the problem was, it wasn’t—it was that nobody had the ability to predict the cost at
that stage of the program. It hadn’t even started.
And here you are in the year 2000—well that year was 1980—you’re talking about going under a
city that was established in 1630 and all the problems that that presented, but we worked back
and forth. In fact, the Third Harbor Tunnel50 was involved in that thing and Tip and I were not
too crazy about the Third Harbor Tunnel, because Tip felt that his people in East Boston would
be dispossessed and I felt my people in South Boston would be removed. But he said, “No. No.
They won’t.” So he said, “Just give me a chance, and if at any stage of the game, before the bill
47
John V. Lindsay (1921-2000), originally a Republican, represented New York’s Seventeenth Congressional
District in the U.S. House of Representatives from 1959 to 1965, then served as mayor of New York City from 1966
to 1973. He changed his political party to Democrat in order to run in the 1972 Democratic presidential nomination,
but lost to George McGovern.
48
The Big Dig, or Central Artery/Tunnel Project (CA/T), was the largest public works project in U.S. history and
involved the replacement of downtown Boston’s elevated highway with a tunnel. The project began in 1991 and
ended in 2007.
49
Frederick P. Salvucci served as secretary of transportation for Massachusetts under Governor Michael Dukakis
from 1975 to 1978 and 1983 to 1990.
50
The Third Harbor Tunnel project, part of the Big Dig, involved the construction of a tunnel connecting South
Boston to Logan Airport in East Boston. It was completed in 1995 and named the Ted Williams Tunnel.
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takes effect, either one of you say, ‘Stop’, that’s the end of the Third Harbor Tunnel.” So we
were bartering on that, bartering on the Big Dig.
END OF PART 1
MOAKLEY: As the project progressed, of course it went up because all these new innovative
types that they had to take. My greatest wish that--when they were investigating it, that if the
overruns were overruns because of the inability to, you know, look forward at that time, rather
than fraud. There was no fraud, no criminality. And that’s what I was happy about. But at the
end when the cost overrun is going on, I’m dean of the delegation and I’m being called on by
some of the people down there, “Hey, you said it was going to cost this.” I said, “Look, I was
just talking what they told me.” But I think it’s near completion and it’s probably three or four
years away. The federal government put a total of 8.5 billion dollars into it, and that’s the cap;
that’s all they’re going to put into it. So any more money has to go into it has got to be state
money.
McETTRICK: Well, it has certainly created a lot of jobs. The environment has changed almost
completely as a result—
MOAKLEY: The city of Boston needed something like that because it’s so small and so
clustered and so many streets intersect. I don’t know if you do, but I remember before we had a
Southeast Expressway. I mean, you almost had to stop at every corner in Boston to get through.
So it is going to be great. In Boston, you can only really appreciate the greatness of Boston
when you go outside of Boston. We’ve got a great city. I know people that have their kids at
school here, just dying to come up and visit their kids so they can eat in one of the restaurants up
here and do whatever else they can do up here. But we do have a great city and the Big Dig is
going to make it that much better.
McETTRICK: One of the changes seems to be the waterfront, really, right from East Boston
over to South Boston. How much has the waterfront changed as you think about it, when you
were growing up? What was it like, and what’s happened?
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MOAKLEY: When I was a kid, I can remember thousands of clam diggers, digging clams at
Carson Beach, and then the pollution came and stopped the clam digging, and then the algae and
everything else. In fact, one time, if somebody said, “Where is the harbor?” You’d—(sniffs)—
you’d direct them by smell. I mean it was a smelly place, and then a few years ago, when Bush
called it the dirtiest harbor—and Ted Kennedy and I decided we were going to do something
about it.
Through the MWRA [Massachusetts Water Resource Authority], we got almost a billion dollars
outside of the MWRA to clean up the harbor. We’ve got a clean harbor today, and because it’s
clean, the fish are back, the dolphin, the phytoplankton. The beaches are open, the water—the
MWRA, the water is almost 80 percent pure when they put it into that pipe and spew it out, nine
miles out.
And now those islands will come into being since the harbor has been cleaned up and in fact, this
is one of the places that you’ll take off to go out to the islands, some of those rafts out here.
We’re going to have a visitor center in the lobby of this courthouse. So it’s changed completely,
and I—some of the tourist people tell me that one of the attractions that bring people to Boston
are the harbor islands, the proximity to the harbor islands, and I just can see them being part of
an educational program in high school. I know that a couple of years ago we put a triumvirate
together with the city, state, and federal government to make these islands be under the control of
the three. And we’ve got some money for it, and we’re going to still continue to do it. So I think
that we live in a great city. We live in a city that’s got these islands that very few—nobody else
has got. And I just think we will be so modern, so ahead of everybody else when we finish the
Big Dig, that this will be the place to visit.
McETTRICK: How did all this change affect South Boston? You mentioned that when you
were younger a lot of dads were longshoremen, you know, worked in factories or whatever, and I
guess the port really slowed down. What was the effect in South Boston? How was that? How
did that change the community?
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MOAKLEY: Well, this area down here there’s been a thousand acres of land that’s been used
for low-grade commercial uses and really not used for its best potential. Twenty-five years ago,
I tried to get mass transit down here. And I made the best case I could, and they said, “Look,
we’re not going to send mass transit down there to take care of two restaurants and a couple of
office buildings.”
So I knew I needed a very weighty project. So when this courthouse came on the scene, I was
the only guy in America, if you may recall in the newspapers, that wanted it here. I was accused
of all kinds of terrible things to get this project here, but what I said then, and it’s recorded in the
newspaper, I said, “You get that courthouse down on the Fan Pier, and we will get mass transit
down here the following year.” I said, “And you will be able to develop a thousand acres of land
that are only used for low-grade commercial uses. This will be the hottest part of the city of
Boston.”
I said, “This will be a great source of revenue with the hotels and with the condominiums,” and
that’s happened. But there’s also a payback, because everybody wants to move down here, and
some of these condos are going to go for a million dollars apiece, and there aren’t too many
people that can afford that. Everybody wants to move as close to the waterfront as they can, so
that’s why the prices in South Boston and the North End are going sky high, because that’s
where people are going to locate. And that’s—the bad side of it is some of the people that
currently live in those areas will not be able to stay in those areas, because it’s just going to be
priced out of the market. That’s why when they talked about some of these Betterment Trusts51
and other things to take care of the people who live there, I thought the idea was great.
ALLISON: Do you see any other solution for the problem?
MOAKLEY: Well, affordable housing—how do you get there, you know? It’s a phrase
overused, but under-worked. But you’ve got to take care of Mrs. O’Leary and the three
51
The South Boston Betterment Trust was formed in 1998 to provide funding, through donations by developers, for
affordable housing in the neighborhood.
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daughters that live in South Boston. You can’t throw them out because somebody can pay twice
or three times the rent that they can pay.
McETTRICK: There’s been a lot of talk lately about Social Security reform and the budget and
you hear this periodically, but I can remember hearing the story that back in the Ronald Reagan
era that there was an assault, if you will, on Social Security, and Tip O’Neill played a major role
in the policy—
MOAKLEY: That’s right.
McETTRICK: Can you tell us a bit about what that was all like?
MOAKLEY: Well, Tip O’Neill grew up in the depression and every once in a while when he
and I would get together and just want to get a little melancholy, he’d throw his feet up on the
desk and light up a cigar; he’d talk about the people, the old people going over the hill to the
poorhouse. How terrible it was, and he said, “Social Security is the only way we’re going to
keep them from not going there,” and so he was a staunch defender of Social Security. And, you
know, he—in fact today the fight is still O’Neill’s fight. What to do with the surplus.
The Democrats want to put it into Social Security and Medicare and prescription drugs in the
Medicare, and then whatever we have left over, just give a tax break; but some of the
Republicans, their bill is they give the big tax break, and then they’re going to put the budget
together and figure out how much they need—that’s not really the way to do it.
And once you do that, if you are short, you’re not going to take the tax breaks away you’re going
to take some discretionary fund money away. So Tip was right then and he did fight Reagan. In
fact he used to say—he’d say, you know, “Look, were a couple of Irishman, but he kind of left
us behind I think.”
McETTRICK: Of course, that was a Democratic Congress.
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MOAKLEY: Oh, yeah.
McETTRICK: And that really had Democratic control.
MOAKLEY: That’s right. Yeah.
McETTRICK: Now there really isn’t!
MOAKLEY: There’s no—it’s all Republican. Republican House, Republican Congress,
Republican president.
McETTRICK: Yeah.
MOAKLEY: But I still think that we’re going to win on that fight. Because I think the people
are just paying too close attention to it. I mean President Bush was able to get his tax bill
through the house, but he’s not going to get it through the senate that quickly and I think there’s
going to be a lot of negotiation, a lot of changing.
McETTRICK: The mission that’s sounding now is, you know, clean elections and election
campaign finance reform, and one thing that we learned was that you haven’t really used
television, for the most part, to run for Congress.
MOAKLEY: With this face, would you? (laughter) Actually, I grew up in the pre-television
era. In fact, I didn’t even have a press agent or whatever they call them, until I went to Congress,
and I just got them to be defensive. So when newspapers call me, then he can talk to them. And
they say that a press release from Joe Moakley is a very rare item, which is so.
It’s—I don’t know. It’s changed. A lot of people write a nice press release, file a bill, speak on
it about a week, and then forget and do something else. Some of the causes that I’ve been
involved in—hey, it’s fire-safe cigarettes; it started in 1975 or six, and I’m still fighting it and—
but I was fighting it when the tobacco industries were eight hundred-pound gorillas. Now that
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they’re softening up, it looks like my bill will get through. I passed about three or four pieces of
it, but I could never get the final piece of it. But the secret of this business is you’ve got to stay
with it. But there are so many things that pass your scope that it’s very hard to keep focused, and
we try and sometimes we’re successful.
McETTRICK: Do you think the democracy is in trouble, because of the cost of campaigning?
MOAKLEY: No. I don’t think it’s in trouble.
McETTRICK: Do you think we’re going to be okay?
MOAKLEY: I don’t think we’re in trouble. The worst thing that I have to do, and I never get
used to it, is asking for money in campaigns. I wish there was some other way. I wish they
could either limit it, the size of the campaign, the timing of the campaign; but the money, you
know, it costs so much to run. I mean the rates for politicians in radio and TV are higher than
other rates. And, you know, some people can use TV. Some people can’t.
I mean this is a very expensive TV market up here. I’ve used radio, because I could saturate a
radio, but I couldn’t afford to saturate TV. No. I think the Feingold-McCain52 is starting to
move, and I think something will be done. I don’t know if it will get exactly the whole piece, but
I would like to see some real restriction. The soft money is what kills you, where people can
spend a million dollars on an ad, and kick the hell out of you, and never have to report to
anybody, as long as they don’t mention the other candidate. They can say, “Vote against Joe
Moakley, because he did this, da da da. He voted against this. He did”—and that’s the end of
the ad, and nobody knows who put it up there. It’s soft money. And that’s what they’ve done,
they’ve abused the soft money situation.
52
The Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act, or McCain–Feingold Act, enacted in 2002, is a United States federal law
that amended the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971, which regulates the financing of political campaigns.
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ALLISON: Well, we were talking about some other personalities, people you had known and
other—some public figures in Boston and Massachusetts politics, some current and some not,
and I wondered if you’d tell us something about some of these people?
MOAKLEY: Well, you know, despite my public persona, I’m really not—I’m kind of a solotype guy. Tip and I were very close, and that was it. I mean other members, hey I work with
them. I have a lot of fun and everything else, but the bell rings, “See you later.” I go home.
So I don’t get into a lot of the party stuff or the embassy stuff, because it just never did anything
for me. I was voted the most popular congressman in the Congress I think three years in a row,
and I think I’ve only had meals with probably a half a dozen congressmen. I work with them,
and we work well, but, you know, when that bell rings it’s, “See you later.”
McETTRICK: One issue that we wanted to ask you about was your involvement with El
Salvador and the investigation, the Jesuit priests. How did you get involved in that issue to begin
with?
MOAKLEY: Well, you know, of all the issues that I’ve been involved with; I mean it was
probably when I got involved with it, it was a no-win issue, because—I know when I first got
involved with it, I was getting calls from my constituents, “Hey, what are you doing down there
with them, if you want to bring people in this country, what about the Irish and the Italian?” You
know, I’d get—that wasn’t a win.
What happened is I have post office meetings and town hall meetings and—where I send a card,
“Anybody got any problems, come in.” So in Jamaica Plain this group of people come in one
day, and they started talking about El Salvador, talking about the killings and the death squads
and how at that time fifty thousand noncombatants were killed. And this is a country the size of
Massachusetts, a population the size of Massachusetts.
Well, I hadn’t heard those things before, so I got Jim McGovern, who is now the congressman
from Worcester, but he was my lead guy at the time. I said, “Would you check this thing out?”
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So he checked it out, and he said, “That’s right.” He says, “These people from El Salvador are
just getting killed, because of the military down there is so tough and if you’re on the street in the
wrong time, your throat is slit. If you’re out organizing coffee pickers, you know, you’re killed.”
So I tried to change the law.53 I wrote to Meese,54 and it was under Reagan’s administration, to
change the immigration law, so that it allowed the El Salvadorans who were in this country to
stay under a limited extended volunteer departure and give them green cards so they could work
over here.
Well they wouldn’t hear of it. So then I passed legislation, and we got to conference. Meese
called up Rodino, who was the chairman; he said, “Look it, if Moakley’s amendment goes
through, the whole bill is dead.” So Rodino said, “Joe, what am I going to do. There’s a lot of
good stuff in here for the Irish, the Italians and so on and so on, and even some Hispanic.” I
said, “Okay. I’m not going to kill the bill, but I want to be sure that I’m the first one out of the
box the next time this immigration comes up.” And Alan Simpson55 was there, and I says, “Alan
I don’t want you giving me any parliamentary roller coaster rides over at the Senate when it gets
there.” He said, “Okay.”
So anyway, a couple of years later, we get it there. We’re in the same spot, and there were about
hundred-fifty people in the room. The theater was great. The senators were on one side; the
house members on the other side. So Jack Brooks56 was in charge of the House members and
Alan Simpson was in charge of the Senate members. So the bill comes up, and then they’re
trying to work it out, so they go through amendment by amendment. So every rep would get up
and say, well, “Senator, I’ve got a bill.” “No. We’re not going to break. Take it in.” So they
kept this, “Nope. Nope.”
53
Starting in 1983, Congressman Moakley introduced legislation to protect Salvadorans in the U.S. using the
“Extended Voluntary Departure” provision that allowed a temporary stay of deportation and work authorization.
Moakley was finally able to pass legislation that granted Temporary Protected Status (TPS) to Salvadorans in the
Immigration Act of 1990 (PL. 101-649). TPS grants temporary legal residency and work authorization to
immigrants fleeing civil wars, natural disasters or other conditions in their home country for a set period of time. In
El Salvador’s case, TPS has been extended several times since 1990. The TPS designation has been used by other
countries experiencing civil unrest and is administered by the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS).
(See http://www.uscis.gov.)
54
Edwin Meese III (1931- ), a Republican, served as Attorney General of the United States from 1985 to 1988.
55
Alan K. Simpson (1931- ), a Republican, represented Wyoming in the U.S. Senate from 1979 to 1997.
56
Jack Brooks (1922- ), a Democrat, represented Texas’ Second Congressional District in the U.S. House of
Representatives from 1953 to 1965 and its Ninth District from 1965 to 1995.
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So he comes to mine. He says, “No. We’re not going to do it.” I said, “Well if you’re not going
to do it, you’re not going to have a bill.” He says, “You wouldn’t do that; would you?” He says,
“A lot of good stuff in here for the Irish.” I says, “Yeah. I know it, but there’s no stuff in here
for the El Salvadorans.” He says, “You’d jeopardize the bill?” I says, “You bet your ass.” I
says, “I’ve been here two years before. This is the last time.” Let me tell you, “It has to come
back to my committee and the Rules Committee before he gets final approval. It’s not going to
get final approval unless this amendment is in there.” Well they recessed. They got on the
phone with the president back and forth; finally—I was looking for a thirty six month extended
volunteer departure. They come back with eighteen months. So I said, “Okay.” So we worked
it out, and what it meant is that the half a million El Salvadorans who were in this country could
stay there.
Up until then, they were—the immigration would just throw them right back, and as soon as they
got back, they’d be incarcerated or tortured, or something else. So that was that part of it. A
couple of years later these Jesuit priests, six Jesuit priests the housekeeper and her daughter were
killed.57 There was a lot of press over who did it, whether it was the military, whether it was the
FMLN [Frente Farabundo Martí para la Liberación Nacional or Farabundo Marti National
Liberation Front], which was the rebel group, and back and forth; and Bush was making a
statement that the rebels did it. And someone else, so finally we were—got from some of the
people we dealt with, we got some information that the rebels didn’t do it, it was the military.
So Tom Foley58 called me. I was down in Florida, giving a speech to the laborer’s union or
something. He said, “Joe,” he says, “I don’t like the way that investigation is going down there.”
He said, “I want you to handle it.” I said, “What do you mean handle it?” He said, “I want you
to be chairman of the committee and task force.” I said, “Mr. Speaker, if you’d put a list—if
57
On November 16, 1989, six Jesuits priests, their housekeeper, and her daughter were murdered at the University
of Central America in San Salvador.
58
Thomas S. Foley (1929- ), a Democrat, represented Washington State’s Fifth Congressional District in the U.S.
House of Representatives from 1969 to 1995. He served as Speaker of the House from 1989 to 1995.
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you’d put a request on the bulletin board, you’d have 434 members, but you wouldn’t have me
on it.” He said, “I know, that’s why I’m calling.” I said, “All right. I’ll take it.”59
He said, “I wanted somebody who didn’t have a bag full of baggage; all their other foreign
affairs meanderings.” So we went in there and didn’t cost a penny; I just worked out of my
Rules Committee thing and went down there, did our own investigations. The embassy kept
putting us on the sanitation road, you know, didn’t want us to get near anything. And it was
very, very awakening. I’ll tell you, frightening at times. I mean a couple of times I thought I
was going to get killed, because we ended up in the car with big machine guns, and I wasn’t sure
who they were. But it turned out all right, and we were able to put the Moakley Report into
the—right into the case against them, part of the evidence.
ALLISON: So you found out who had done this?
MOAKLEY: Yeah. We found out through—who had been there. So they indicted twenty-six
military people. You know, about four of them were found guilty, but up until then no military
men had ever been found guilty of any crime for a civilian. But the whole thing changed around,
and then we did a real job on—you know, our country spent six billion dollars on military aid to
El Salvador in a ten-year period. It was the largest military money to any country with the
exception of Israel. And it was a country the size of Massachusetts. So we ended up passing
legislation to cut off the aid, so when the aid was cut off, there was nothing else to fight for; so
they got together, and the people who were shooting against each other and working against each
other are now serving in the parliament down there. We had a lot of very scary moments.
In fact, the last time I went down, I was invited down to speak at the tenth anniversary; the State
Department says, “There’s been a death threat on your life.” I said, “Okay.” He said, “No. This
is real. We know who the people are, and they can do it.” I said, “So what do you want?” He
said, “We don’t think you should go.” I said, “BS. If they’re going to keep me away by a death
threat, then, you know, what good is this whole thing?” He said, “Well if you go, you’re going
59
In December of 1989, Speaker of the House Thomas S. Foley appointed Moakley as chairman of a committee to
investigate violence in El Salvador, specifically the Jesuit murders. The committee is commonly referred to as the
Speaker’s Task Force on El Salvador or the Moakley Commission.
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to have to bring—we’re going to have to go with you.” And so I said, “Okay.” So they put a
couple of guys with me, and we went down there, and they got the guy that made the threat. And
he said, “Well, he says he said it, but he really didn’t mean it.” But, you know, he happened to
be the head of a big kind of a—almost like a National Guard unit, so I mean he had the ability to
do it, but we went down there, and it turned out all right.
McETTRICK: Did anyone ever figure out exactly what the motivation was? Was this some
political retaliation?
MOAKLEY: Killing the Jesuits?
McETTRICK: Yeah.
MOAKLEY: Oh, yeah.
McETTRICK: It seemed such a grotesque thing to do.
MOAKLEY: Well the Jesuits were teaching liberation theology.60 And that theology doesn’t
go over well in those countries. And the military regarded that as aiding the enemy. And it was
just—they couldn’t see it any other way, but the people they killed were six internationally
known educators. I mean these people weren’t just village priests. I mean these were Jesuits,
Spanish Jesuits also.
It was a terrible thing. What they did is the Atlacatl Battalion,61 which was the crack battalion,
trained in North Carolina, trained in human rights, okay? They were in the area, and they went
through like the day before or two days before the killings, to check out the unit. What’s going
on—and all this stuff and they knew where everybody was. What happened in the meantime,
after they had left, there was a husband and wife and their daughter who came and asked them if
60
Liberation theology is a school of thought that focuses on using religious faith to combat poverty and oppression.
It has been popular particularly among Latin American Catholics. (See http://www.liberationtheology.org)
61
The Atlacatl Battalion was a Salvadoran army battalion that was formed and trained at the U.S. military’s School
of the Americas, which trains mainly Latin American military groups in security and defense tactics. Members of
the Atlacatl Battalion were found to be responsible for the Jesuit murders.
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they could live there—stay overnight, because their house had been blown up. So they stayed in
the place just a little away from everybody else. The military didn’t know this, so when they
went through shooting up, these people are looking out the window and, you know, seeing. And
they tried to suppress the girl’s evidence. The FBI tried to suppress it. Okay?
I mean we were fighting our own country on this one. So they tried to suppress it, and they got a
hold of it, and then she told me, “Oh, they wanted to suppress it,” because they said her stories—
they asked her once, and she gave one set of stories, asked her a second time, they gave another
set of stories. Her name was Lucía Cerna, and she got high blood pressure.
So we had her in the office. We got her in, and I asked her I said, “How come you told one story
one time, and the other story?” So she says, “Well, the FBI brought me into Miami. They asked
me to tell the story, and I told the story. Then after I told the story—a colonel from El Salvador
came into the room, and says, “I hope you know what you’re saying. You know, you still got
your family down there.” He intimidated her. Now there was no report and no activity that this
fellow walked in the room. But he was telling her, so then she changed the story. But nowhere
did it appear on the FBI records that this happened.
In fact, there was another thing that happened. We had information that a lieutenant in the
American Army, Buckland, bonded with a lieutenant colonel, named Aviles, in the El Salvador
Army, and they became very friendly, and Aviles told him about the killing of the Jesuits. So
Buckland thought he owed this fellow some kind of allegiance, so he didn’t say anything, but it
got to him in about a couple of weeks, then he finally went to the U.S. Embassy and said, “Hey,
look it, I got this information.”
(interruption)
MOAKLEY: All right. So this General Buckland bonded with Lieutenant Colonel Aviles, and
the Lieutenant Colonel Aviles told him about the killings of the Jesuits and how it happened. So
he held it about two weeks, and he couldn’t hold it anymore. So he goes to the U.S. Embassy
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�OH-001 Transcript
and the ambassador is not there. So he meets the U.S. military guy, so when he tells him the
story, he says, “Wow.” He says, “Come on. Let’s go and see General Ponce.”
Now General Ponce is the minister of defense for El Salvador. So he tells him the story, and
Ponce says, “I can’t believe that. I know Colonel Aviles. He would never say anything like
that.” He said, “Well he did say it.” He says, “Well if you want to insist on that, why don’t you
write a note, and get the note to me.” So he wrote the note. You know, the average fellow, if a
guy says, “I don’t believe it. Would you write a note?” that would have been the end of it. He’d
figure, “This guy is not going to believe me.” So he wrote the note and the State Department got
wind of it, because the American military man was there. In fact, he sent a copy of the note, I
guess, to his sister to make sure he wasn’t going to get killed.
So that note was there, and it explained everything. So when I went down there, I got wind that
there was some kind of correspondence between Buckland. So I stood up; I said, “Mr.
Ambassador, that letter that Buckland wrote to General Ponce,” I says, “I’d like to take a look at
it.” He said, “Okay. We’ll let you see it tomorrow.” So tomorrow comes by, I said, “I’d like to
see that letter.” He said, “Well, the secretary of state said it’s classified against you.” I said,
“Look it, this is part of the investigation—this is the investigation. I need that letter.” “I’m
sorry, it’s classified.” So I said to McGovern, “Let’s go.” So we went to the El Salvador CIA
equivalent. I saw the top guy, and I said, “Look it, I want to talk about Buckland and the letter
that he talks about Colonel Aviles and the killing of the Jesuits.” He says, “Okay.” I said, “I left
it at the hotel.” I said, “You got a copy?” He says, “Yeah. I’ll get you a copy.”
So he runs off a copy and I said, “Geez, I left my glasses,” so that’s how I got the copy. I
couldn’t get it from our own place, but the whole thing was the same way. I’d tell the State
Department—“Oh, yeah, we sent that down.” We’d find out they never sent it down. They just
were stalling, because they just couldn’t tell the American people that we’ve spent six billion
dollars to a military group that killed priests, sodomized churchwomen, you know, and did all
these terrible things. Because they just thought they were immune to any kind of prosecution.
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�OH-001 Transcript
McETTRICK: Well, you know, over the years there’s been a connection, really between
Boston and the West Indies, Cuba, sugar trade back and forth, and the First National Bank was
big down there. What do you think the future is with respect to our relations with Cuba? How
do you think that’s going to go?
MOAKLEY: Well President Bush just appointed a fellow to represent—our representative to
Cuba, who has got a record of being very-very much anti-Castro. So it doesn’t look like much is
going to happen. And that’s a terrible thing; the people in Cuba love the American people, the
only people who have problems are the governments.
I’m just sorry to say that our government has still got the 1959 mentality. I mean you got to
forget and start somewhere. When I talked with Castro, you know, I don’t say he’s the best guy
in the world—when I think of Cuba, I don’t think of Castro. I think of this three-year-old kid I
saw in a pediatric hospital with a tracheotomy that lost a lung because they didn’t have this
plastic shunt that was so available ninety miles away in Miami. I mean people with malnutrition
down there. This country sends them all the insulin for their diabetic people. Their
pharmaceuticals are almost nothing. In fact, I had a group down there a couple of years ago and
we set up some kind of liaison between some of our Massachusetts pharmaceutical people and
them, and Schepens Eye Institute is now giving a Cuban doctor a fellowship to study some of the
eye diseases. So little by little we’re doing it, but the administration has got to go.
In fact, last year or the year before, we passed a law that says American citizens could travel
there. We didn’t pass the law. We passed it in the House that American citizens could travel
freely and they could spend money, and the farmers could give wheat loans, but the Republicans
just pulled it out at the last minute. And I just think it’s so terrible. It’s a country ninety miles
away. We don’t need to make an incendiary relationship with a country ninety miles away, but
that’s the Cuban Americans.
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�OH-001 Transcript
I think the Elian Gonzalez62 case clearly showed the horrendous power those people have. I
mean they alone are responsible for the embargo still being on all these years. If you can’t cure
something with an embargo after five or ten years, you got to go somewhere else. And the
problem is every other country in the world is trading with Cuba, but us. And we could clean
their clock, because we’re only ninety miles away.
McETTRICK: How did you have occasion to meet Castro? How did you get down to meet
him?
MOAKLEY: He sent for me. Yeah, as a result of my work in El Salvador, I met some of the
rebels that I dealt with, evidently were connected with his people. So after we kind of put the El
Salvador situation to bed, I just got a liver transplant in July, and this was about AugustSeptember, so McGovern walks over to the office. He says, “Castro wants to talk to you.” I
said, “I don’t need any couches.” He said, “Not that Castro, the Castro in Cuba.” I said,
“What’s he want to talk to me about?” “I don’t know, his man said that you had talked with
Villalobos63 and a few other people and that you talked with Juan Tung (??), and he’d just like to
talk with you.” I said, “Jim, I’m not feeling well.” He says, “Well just think about it.”
So that following January, Castro is coming to New York. We get another call. So McGovern
said, “Look, I want you to go up and meet him.” I said, “Okay.” So I go up and Jesus, there’s
thousands of people around throwing rocks. “You Castro Communist lover!” I said, “What the
hell did you get me into?” So anyway, we went inside and Castro made the rounds of everybody
in the room, and when he got to me and he was introduced to me, he grabbed me by the lapel,
and he kissed me on the cheeks, and he said through an interpreter, “Very nice to meet you.” He
said, “I want to talk to you.” I said, “Okay.” He said, “I want to talk to you in my country, in
Cuba.” I says, “Fine.” (phone rings)
62
Elian Gonzales is a Cuban boy who fled Cuba in 1999 with his mother and several other people in a small boat
headed for the United States. After the boat sank and most of the people aboard died, Elian and two survivors were
found my some fishermen and turned over to the U.S. Coast Guard. A custody battle ensued between Elian’s uncle
in the U.S., who thought he should remain there, and his father in Cuba, who claimed Elian was taken by his mother
without his knowledge. A district court in Atlanta ruled that Elian’s uncle could not claim asylum for him, and after
the U.S. Supreme Court refused to hear the case, Elian was returned to his father in Cuba.
63
Joaquin Villalobos (1951- ) led El Salvador’s People’s Revolution Army, one of the five groups that joined in
1980 to form the FMLN.
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�OH-001 Transcript
So he says, “You’ll come?” I says, “Yeah.” He says, “When?” It’s not like dropping in for a
cup of coffee. I says, “I don’t know.” He says, “Could you get down?” I said, “Okay.” So I
come down. So I brought—at that time I think I did bring down some human rights people.
(phone rings)
MOAKLEY: He grabbed me by the lapels, so he said, you know, “I want to see you down
there.” I said, “Okay. Okay.” He said, “When?” I said, “I’ll make some time.” He said,
“Soon.” I said, “Okay.” So we went down there, and we brought these human rights people. In
fact, the State Department didn’t want to let us go. So they said, “You can’t bring them because
they’re businessmen.” I said, “Well who can I bring?” He says, “Human rights experts.” So I
made them all human rights experts. “So then if you go there, you can’t visit the tobacco—you
can’t tour the tobacco companies.” So I said, “Okay.” We didn’t tour them. We just visited
them.
Then if you meet with the ministers, you have to bring all the dissidents with you. I says, “For
Christ’s sakes, that’s like bringing all your girlfriends when you propose to your wife. Give me
a break, will you?” But they kept throwing these obstacles, obstacles. In fact, we didn’t get the
ticket, we didn’t get the permission to visit Cuba—now this is the first legitimate trip to Cuba
authorized by the State Department—we didn’t get the authorization until the plane that left
Boston landed in Florida. Now those guys didn’t know it, or they probably wouldn’t have gotten
on the plane, and that’s when we got it. But they just threw every kind of thing—it’s just
terrible. It’s all fear of that Cuban militia down in Florida.
McETTRICK: So how is it physically when you went to visit? Heavy security?
MOAKLEY: No. It’s great. I mean they opened up—we could go any place we want. There
was nothing—in fact McGovern and I met with Castro and an interpreter in a room about three
or four times as long as this, and one table between us. We just had a nice conversation back and
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�OH-001 Transcript
forth and talked about everything. And finally I said, “Look it, if you—they’re working on a bill
now that’s going to make trading with Cuba almost impossible, the Helms-Burton bill.64 I said
“I think if you say you’re going to order free elections, if you’re going to free the dissidents and
if you can just be a little bit more open in your policy,” I said, “it might be enough to forestall
that.” He said, “We’ll see.”
(interruption)
MOAKLEY: We met about eleven o’clock. We finished up at one o’clock. I mean, he’s a
vampire. He has these nocturnal meetings, and when we got through, he said through an
interpreter, he said, “You know”—here’s an atheist. He said, “God must have wanted us to be
friends or why would he only put us ninety miles apart?” Then we had some fun. We gave him
a Red Sox jacket and gave him all this stuff. I have a picture of it. In fact, I had him sign a
baseball, because he was a baseball player at one time. Then I went down when the Pope was
there. Then I went down one other time. So I’ve been in Cuba three or four times.
McETTRICK: How was the Pope greeted in Cuba?
MOAKLEY: Oh boy! I’ve never seen such an outpouring. In fact, Castro said that Cuba will
never be the same, because all these people came out; you know, for a while there, Castro had
discontinued the saying of Mass or observing any Catholic rites, and now when the Pope came,
he backed down again.
McETTRICK: You had occasion to meet the Pope, too, recently didn’t you?
MOAKLEY: Yeah. I traveled with Speaker Hastert,65 and we presented him with the Medal of
Freedom for his work in human rights, and he was great. He’d give you the blessing. He said, “I
bless not only you, but I bless all your constituents.” Then when he was leaving he said, “God
64
The Cuban Liberty and Democratic Solidarity Act, or Helms-Burton Act, was passed in 1996 to strengthen and
continue the United States embargo against Cuba.
65
John Dennis Hastert (1942- ), a Republican, represented Illinois’ Fourteenth Congressional District in the U.S.
House of Representatives from 1987 to 2007. He served as Speaker of the House from 1999 to 2007.
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�OH-001 Transcript
bless America.” In fact, the Pope doesn’t take honors. He took this because he felt that we were
the peace-loving country dedicated to eradicating human rights abuse. So therefore, he would
take the award.
McETTRICK: It must have been quite an honor, quite an experience.
MOAKLEY: Oh, it sure was, and he was great. You know, usually when people say, “I had an
audience with the Pope,” they’re one of four hundred people in a big room. Every one of us
knelt and kissed his ring and had our picture taken doing it, it was great.
McETTRICK: How would you say the district has changed since you became a congressman?
It’s been a long time now almost thirty years? Of course, it wanders around geographically from
one redistricting to the next. But in terms of the people and it’s—is it much the same or is it a
different situation?
MOAKLEY: Well, I read somewhere that since 1980 South Boston has changed 50 percent.
So that people do change, and I think the reason for that is because people have been offered so
much money for their homes. I mean homes that were probably selling for fifty-thousand dollars
a few years ago, you can get two-hundred fifty thousand dollars now for them now. So that’s
pretty hard to say no to, so people take it and run.
McETTRICK: But the issues that go across your desk are still really much the same?
MOAKLEY: Yeah. People are people. Yeah. Crime was big for a while, but it’s not.
Education is one of the top things now. People want the best schools for their kids. That’s about
the main issue.
McETTRICK: So there will be other congressmen from Massachusetts going down and trying
to deal with these problems. What advice would you be giving to them? You’ve been on the
watch for so long. What should they look out for? What should they do for the people of
Massachusetts when they get down there?
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�OH-001 Transcript
MOAKLEY: Serving in Congress is like living in the neighborhood. You can’t impress your
neighbor unless he’s got some faith in you. You’ve got to build up relationships. You’ve got to
let people know you. You’ve got to do a lot of listening, and you’ve got to realize that nobody
has a monopoly on new ideas. Some of the best ideas could come from outside of the system.
But just listen. I mean most people in public life like to talk, but I mean if you do more listening
than talking, I think you’re ahead of the game.
ALLISON: It could be why you’re the most popular member of Congress.
MOAKLEY: Because I’ve listened a lot, yeah. Sometimes it’s tough—the problem with public
life, a lot of egos get in the way. I mean some people get such gigantic egos that everybody is
afraid to make that first step, ask the first question or—because it looks like a sign of weakness,
you’re asking for something. I’m not. I’d just as soon walk across the aisle anytime, ask
anybody for anything I wanted to, but I think that a lot of that has to do with growing up on the
street corners and knowing, what can be done; what can’t be done. Growing up in the projects,
living together like the guy upstairs, downstairs and over the back fence; and in that upstairs,
downstairs and over the back fence, that becomes maybe the next city or the next town, the next
state, the next country. But people are people.
McETTRICK: The same principle!
MOAKLEY: That’s right.
McETTRICK: Are there other areas that you wanted us to get into? I mean we’re having the
chance to put everything down on tape. You’ve got a pretty good working over here.
MOAKLEY: You know, when you talk for fifty years, there’s so many ways you can go. I’d
just as soon be answering questions.
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ALLISON: I’m just thinking about some of the personalities who have been involved in
politics—when you were—James Michael Curley66 once represented the Ninth District.
MOAKLEY: Yeah. No. He was Tip O’Neill’s district.
ALLISON: But actually in 1914, he represented this district, then Gallivan67 took his seat when
he became mayor. I’m not confusing the subject.
MOAKLEY: No. But I thought that—
ALLISON: He represented both districts.
MOAKLEY: Oh, okay.
ALLISON: Way back. Do you remember him?
MOAKLEY: I remember him as a kid starting out, you know, I was in politics when he was
leaving. In fact, my office in D.C. is the—or was where James Michael Curley had his office.
Yeah. He couldn’t exist in today’s thing, but for those days, maybe that’s what they needed. It’s
a different world.
ALLISON: And you said that you regarded Speaker McCormack as something like a saint?
MOAKLEY: Oh, absolutely.
ALLISON: What kind of contact did you ever have with him? How did you see him when you
were growing up in South Boston?
66
James Michael Curley (1874-1958), a Democrat, served as mayor of Boston for four non-consecutive terms: 1914
to 1918, 1922 to 1926, 1930 to 1934, and 1946 to 1950, and as governor of Massachusetts from 1935 to 1937. He
also represented Massachusetts’ Twelfth Congressional District in the United States House of Representatives from
1911 to 1914 and the Eleventh Congressional District from 1943 to 1946. He served jail time in the late 1940s for
official misconduct, but remained in office as mayor during that time.
67
James A. Gallivan (1866-1928), a Democrat, represented Massachusetts’ Eleventh Congressional District from
1914 to 1928.
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MOAKLEY: Well, when I was one, Speaker McCormack was elected to Congress. When I
was forty-two he stepped down, so he was the only man I ever knew as a congressman. I
thought “congressman” and “McCormack” was synonymous, you know? But he always had a
very saintly attitude, and the way he treated women, I mean he just put every woman on a
pedestal, and he would never use a nickname, like Tip O’Neill was always “Thomas.” And Joe
Moakley was always, “John.” I mean he just didn’t go for any of those things.
A very bright fellow, good memory, good congressman, but much to himself, though in his off
hours. Like Tip is just the opposite. Tip is gregarious. I mean you walk down, everybody
knows Tip. I mean he’s probably the most visible speaker ever, and it was partly done because
Reagan made it so, because the fights that he and Reagan had together. I remember being in
China with O’Neill on the Wall and some of the Chinese people pointing to him, knowing he
was somebody, but probably didn’t know exactly who he was.
McETTRICK: What were you doing in China? What was the contact?
MOAKLEY: We went over and met with Deng Xiaoping and some of the ministers—and this
was back in 1980—went to the Forbidden City, talked about trade policies. Went to Hong Kong
and Singapore, and it was quite a swath.
McETTRICK: What were your impressions of Cardinal Cushing?68 He was another son of
South Boston.
MOAKLEY: The best. He could have been the best politician in the town rather than the best
Cardinal.
McETTRICK: He may have been.
68
Richard Cardinal Cushing (1895-1970), who was raised in South Boston, was a cardinal of the Roman Catholic
Church. He served as Archbishop of Boston from 1944 to 1970 and became a cardinal in 1958.
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MOAKLEY: Okay.
McETTRICK: Well, I think that’s good. We’ve covered a lot of ground. Thank you. We
appreciate your time. It was very enjoyable. It was an honor, really.
MOAKLEY: Maybe if my memory gets better, maybe we can talk about something else.
END OF INTERVIEW
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59
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers, 1926-2001
Subject
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Boston (Mass.)<br />Legislators--United States <br />Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001<br /> South Boston (Boston, Mass.)<br />Legislators. Massachusetts<br />Politicians--Massachusetts
Description
An account of the resource
The paper of Congressman John Joseph Moakley are housed at the Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.<br /><br />The sample of items from the Moakley papers exhibited on this site are used courtesy of the Moakley Archive and Institute. The full collection documents Moakley’s early life, his World War II service, his terms in the Massachusetts House of Representatives and Senate, and his service in Congress. The majority of the collection covers Moakley’s congressional career from 1973 until 2001. A <a title="Moakley papers" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/MoakleyArchive/ms100.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> the the collection is available online. <br /><br />The collection is open for research. Access to materials may be restricted based on their condition. Please consult the <a title="Moakley Archive" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/moakley" target="_blank">Moakley Archive and Institute</a>, Suffolk University for more information.
Creator
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Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001.
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers (MS 100), 1926-2001. View the <a title="John Joseph Moakley Papers" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/MoakleyArchive/ms100.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> at the Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.
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Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.
Date
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1926-2001
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Items highlighted from the Moakley papers in this online collection are made available for research and educational purposes by the Moakley Archive & Institute. <br /><br />Copyright is retained by the creators of items in the Moakley papers, or their descendants, as stipulated by United States copyright law. This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the Moakley Archive & Institute. Prior permission is required for any commercial use.
Relation
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<div>
<div>
<p>Moakley Papers: Moakley Oral History Project<br />Enemies of War Collection (MS 104)<br /> Jamaica Plain Committee on Central America Collection (MS 103)</p>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
Contributor
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Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University.
Format
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300.7 cubic feet (521 boxes)
Language
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English
Type
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Text
Image
Identifier
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MS 100
Coverage
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Boston, Mass.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Allison, Robert J.
McEttrick, Joseph
Interviewee
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Moakley, John Joseph
Original Format
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MOV video (QuickTime)
Note: Original video recording is available for viewing at the John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
Duration
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1:48:47
Time Summary
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Part 1
Growing up in South Boston p. 3 (00:02)
Military service p. 9 (10:29)
State political career p. 12 (16:05)
Member of Congress (1973-2001) p. 19 (29:30)
Evelyn Moakley p. 25 (41:24)
Suffolk University Law School p. 26 (43:34)
Thoughts on political figures p. 30 (47:58)
Improvements to Boston p. 36 (1:00:30)
Part 2
El Salvador involvement p. 43 (13:55)
Cuba p. 49 (29:09)
Reflections of almost fifty years in public office p. 53 (39:07)
Location
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District office of Congressman John Joseph Moakley, South Boston, Mass.
Transcription
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See PDF transcript
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Transcript of Oral History Interview of Congressman John Joseph Moakley
Subject
The topic of the resource
Boston (Mass.)
Busing for school integration
Cuba
El Salvador
Massachusetts--Politics and government
Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001
O’Neill, Tip
South Boston (Boston, Mass)
Suffolk University. Law School
United States. Congress
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Congressman John Joseph Moakley, who represented Massachusetts' Ninth Congressional District from 1973 until his death in 2001, discusses his life and political career. While he only reflects briefly on Judge W. Arthur Garrity's 1974 decision in the case of Morgan v. Hennigan, which required some students to be bused between Boston neighborhoods with the goal of creating racial balance in the public schools (see transcript, page 18), the interview provides significant insight into Moakley's character and political views. He also discusses his childhood in South Boston; his military background; his experiences at Suffolk University Law School; his career in both state and national politics; and some of the issues that have been important to him during his career, especially in regards to human rights violations and injustice in El Salvador.
Creator
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
Source
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Moakley Oral History Project
Publisher
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
Contributor
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Kintz, Laura
Rights
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Copyright Suffolk University. This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute. Prior permission is required for any commercial use.
Relation
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Moakley Oral History Project: http://moakleyarchive.omeka.net/collections/show/1
Format
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PDF (Computer file format)
Language
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English
Type
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Oral history interview transcript
Identifier
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OH-001
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
April 2, 2001
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/15912/archive/files/15764ef5506b2a4545d42f9a8be1de36.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=BkEstiZFFiNo5et%7EsRI1Sm24drl69s4UN6m9f4PVtc8yIzfqgQcIk78Sw8HncCPWZvqrMkEQwrJz-tiNPu70CEWoYeMy0un7gVWmnFvyd7q43BGb6KTFCNnWgvmYjjpxstELGeR790a0kjLsdC2hVqrGrItw1jC05J35H1A6IhrmDRd7fv9etEHqrzmud7rHhTJmGgwNu5snREL1IC4G-d2dOnHtviC5gadNug4sffBFLFx5IZjftc99-944VnMUpOCBZ4EVytLBmPKULupVni8bTH9DIt61V1Hr7qdWmLO8EWDEHNqTCpL1ulSnQ8U6w30exWRRdrrwfFpII2r47Q__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
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PDF Text
Text
Oral History Interview of Brian Wallace (OH-043)
Moakley Archive and Institute
www.suffolk.edu/moakley
archives@suffolk.edu
Oral History Interview of State Representative Brian P. Wallace
Interview Date: March 2, 2005
Interviewed by: Matthew Wilding, Suffolk University Student from History 364: Oral
History
Citation: Wallace, Rep. Brian P. Interviewed by Matthew Wilding. John Joseph Moakley
Oral History Project OH-043. 2 March 2005. Transcript and audio available. John Joseph
Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, MA.
Copyright: Copyright © 2005, Suffolk University.
Interview Summary
Brian P. Wallace, a Massachusetts state representative and resident of South Boston,
discusses the impact of the 1974 Garrity decision, which required students to be bused
between Boston neighborhoods with the intention of creating racial balance in the public
schools. As an aide to then-state representative Ray Flynn, Representative Wallace witnessed
firsthand the feelings of local politicians in the aftermath of the decision. In this interview he
reflects on the reactions of the city’s residents to the decision; the impact of media reports;
Congressman John Joseph Moakley’s position on the issue; and the negative effects of the
decision on the city of Boston and its schools.
Subject Headlines
South Boston (Mass.)
Busing for school integration
Flynn, Raymond L., 1939Garrity, Arthur W., Jr., 1920-1999
Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001
Morgan v. Hennigan (379 F. Supp. 410)
Wallace, Brian P., 1949Table of Contents
Part 1
Representative Wallace’s background
p. 3 (00:07)
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
1
�Reactions to and impact of the Garrity decision
p. 4 (00:55)
Congressman Moakley’s position
p. 9 (15:49)
More on the impact of the decision
p. 9 (16:40)
Part 2
More on the impact of the decision
p. 13 (00:22)
Lack of regard for other solutions
p. 18 (13:48)
More about the effect of busing on Congressman Moakley
p. 19 (16:39)
Boston schools today and the legacy of busing
p. 20 (19:20)
Interview transcript begins on next page
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�OH-043 Transcript
This interview took place on March 2, 2005, at the office of State Representative Brian
Wallace at the Massachusetts State House in Boston.
Interview Transcript
MATTHEW WILDING: It is March 2, 2005. This is Matt Wilding interviewing. Can you
introduce yourself, please?
BRIAN WALLACE: State Representative Brian Patrick Wallace.
WILDING: And where are you from, Brian?
WALLACE: South Boston, Massachusetts.
WILDING: Where did you go to school?
WALLACE: Grammar school in South Boston, South Boston High School. I attended
Loyola College in Montreal. Boston State College and Emerson College.
WILDING: And when did you graduate high school?
WALLACE: In ’67.
WILDING: When did you start working in the public sector?
WALLACE: It was actually 1970 that I started working at the state house for then-state
representative Ray Flynn.1 I worked as an aide for him full-time then and then part-time four
years later.
WILDING: And what was your position at the time of the Garrity decision?2
1
Raymond L. Flynn (1939- ), a Democrat, represented South Boston in the Massachusetts State House of
Representatives from 1971 to 1979. He later served on the Boston City Council from 1978 to 1974, then as
mayor of Boston from 1984 to 1993.
2
The Garrity decision refers to the June 21, 1974, opinion filed by Judge Arthur W. Garrity in the case of
Tallulah Morgan et al. v. James Hennigan et al. (379 F. Supp. 410). Judge Garrity ruled that the Boston School
Committee had “intentionally brought about and maintained racial segregation” in the Boston Public Schools.
When the school committee did not submit a workable desegregation plan as the opinion had required, the court
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
3
�OH-043 Transcript
WALLACE: I was an aide. I was an aide to Ray Flynn at that time.
WILDING: When did you first hear about the decision?
WALLACE: We had heard it was coming down sometime in June. We knew all about the
case obviously from the lawsuit. I think it was June twenty-first, if I’m not mistaken, that we
were actually walking out of the building, and we ran into the governor at the time who was
Frank Sargent. He was the one who actually told us that the decision had come down that
day. I think it was June twenty-first.
WILDING: And were you expecting the decision?
WALLACE: Well, yeah, we were expecting it, we just didn’t know—it was getting late. I
think it was the last day of school and it was getting very late, especially given the fullness of
the plan. If it was a simpler plan it might have been easier to install or to put together, but
this wide-sweeping plan with only a couple of months to do just gave everyone a fit basically.
WILDING: Now do you think this decision could have been prevented?
WALLACE: No, I don’t think it could have been prevented. I think the federal court had to
step in. There were a lot of plans on the table. This was the most radical plan. One of the
plans that we had asked them to start that September was to start with the first grade kids.
Start with them so that no one would be grandfathered in. It would be—all the first grades
across the city would be included in the plan. Second grade would basically go on as was.
There were other plans to just do high schools; there were a number of plans on the table.
This was by far the most far-reaching and the most radical of the plans.
WILDING: Now was this the plan you guys were expecting to see?
WALLACE: No, no. This was way beyond what we expected. This was basically telling
parents that you have no control over where your kids go to school and they’re going to
school in two months regardless of what you feel or what your input is. This was a done
established a plan that called for some students to be bused from their own neighborhoods to attend schools in
other neighborhoods, with the goal of creating racial balance in the Boston Public Schools. (See
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deal. There was no more community process. This was Judge [W. Arthur] Garrity saying
that, you know, “I’m sticking it to a lot of these communities and I don’t care what you think
about it. Here’s what’s happening and take it or leave it.”
WILDING: So what was your initial reaction?
WALLACE: I was pissed to be quite honest with you, because I knew from going to school
in South Boston, I knew from working in the state house, and from being a city kid, you
know, a pretty street smart kid from the lower end of Southie, I knew that this was going to
have a devastating effect not only on parents and the kids but the school system in general.
When ninety-three thousand were in school a day June 21, 1974, they were now sixty
[thousand] or sixty-one [thousand]—we knew that this was going to destroy the school
system, it was going to destroy education. It would take thirty years to get back on track and
they still haven’t, and it was going to destroy all the sports programs that we had worked too
hard to keep. It was just a bad plan made by a guy who didn’t understand anything about
Boston, South Boston, Dorchester, Roxbury, or anything.
WILDING: What was Flynn’s professional reaction?
WALLACE: He was the same as I was. He was very upset. Ray was a great athlete at
Southie High. He understood the breadth of this plan. He understood that this was a death
knell for the schools and this was going to force parents not only out of the schools but out of
the city; out of our town, out of (inaudible), Hyde Park, Dorchester, Charlestown, East
Boston. This was going to be white flight at its greatest and that’s exactly what we saw.
People left in droves. Some of them to never return, some of them are back now that their
kids are grown but they couldn’t, they wouldn’t, they refused to send their kids to a school
that they didn’t approve of, and they in turn left the city.
WILDING: As far as communities are concerned, what did you see as a reaction with
people who did stay?
WALLACE: Some people had no recourse; some people didn’t have money to leave and
they didn’t have money to send their kids to Catholic school, parochial school. So one of the
http://www.lib.umb.edu/archives/garrity2.html)
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things we did was we formed our own academy, South Boston Heights Academy, where a lot
of the kids who couldn’t afford to leave, couldn’t afford a parochial school actually went to
school for a number of years over there. It was a substitute for the public schools.
Other people held their kids out of school for a year. Other kids never went back to school.
There was a good three or four years there where kids were shortchanged. They lost their
education; they would go to school and then leave and it just—you know, there were a
number of kids that were lost in the system. Some of the kids got involved in violence
because of this and ended up in jail. There’s a kid I knew up from Southie who threw a rock
at a bus, which no one condoned obviously, but he got arrested for it and he ended up going
to jail. He got out, did something else. This kid became a career criminal and I’m not sure
any of that would have happened. You know, he wasn’t the nicest kid, but still, he didn’t
have a chance and it was too bad.
There was a lot of violence on both sides of the issue, on both sides of the buses, and none of
that was reported. If you had read any of the news reports those days it was the people of
South Boston who were racist and bigots and hated everyone and that really wasn’t the case.
That was unfortunate and that’s what the reporters reported, that’s what they were told to
report and they did. It ended up like we were the bad guys, we didn’t want blacks in our
schools.
In actuality we didn’t want our kids going to schools that we didn’t approve of. We wanted
to have some say in our kids’ education, but they turned that around. They turned that around
and because of the first day, because of the buses coming up the hill and all the problems, that
played into the media’s hands and they now had the scapegoat. It was never going to be
Garrity, the scapegoat was us. And we wore that. We’re still wearing that. We’re still
wearing it to this day. Some people when they think of Southie they think of racism, the
think of all these negative stereotypes and I wish they’d come over there spend some time
over there and see what a great community we have.
WILDING: You mentioned your involvement in South Boston Heights.
WALLACE: South Boston Heights Academy.
WILDING: Academy?
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WALLACE: I really wasn’t involved in that. That was a number of parents who got
together and formed that and it lasted I think four or five years.
WILDING: How would you, at the time of the decision, both right before and right after,
how would you characterize the neighborhood of South Boston?
WALLACE: Southie was a very, very loyal community. South Boston High at that time I
would say was really kind of a focal point in the community. Most of the kids either went—
don’t get me wrong, kids from Southie went all over the place. In 1967 there was a picture in
the Boston Globe and there were twelve boys from Southie who were captains of high school
hockey teams that one year, which was unheard of; it was [Boston] Latin, [Boston] English;
just about every school within range, the captain of the hockey team was from Southie. It
was amazing.
Kids from Southie went all over the place and there were never any racial problems that I
know of. I had this kid named Louis Blackingmore; he was a black kid that grew up on D
Street. People didn’t think that we had blacks over here. We did, but we got along. This kid
was my halfback and I saw him the other day and he was hugging me and kissing me. They
were the ones who were forced out. It was unfortunate because people took out some of their
rage on people like Louis Blackingmore, Chris Baker, who was a black kid who was living in
Southie.
The plan enraged people on both sides. White and black. And I felt bad for those people
who had lived here their wholes lives who were now all of a sudden subjected to torment
from the very people that they grew up with. It really—it really—it got to the worst form of
people. It got to their inner soul and it was a terrible, terrible—those two years were the
worst years I think of my life. It was just awful around here. There were helicopters; you
know, you’d think it was a war zone. You wake up in the morning with helicopters and you
go to bed with them at night. Police beating up parents, patrons.
I don’t know if you know anything about the Rabbit Inn incident where the State Tactical
Police Force went in, and the night before there was an incident down there, and one of the
Tactical Police Force, they said something to them, so he came back with twelve or fifteen
cops all dressed up in riot gear so no one could see their face and they beat up the patrons.
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There was a federal lawsuit about it but they split people over with clubs, and this is what
was going on then. It was just a horrendous time in our history.
WILDING: Now was that covered by the media?
WALLACE: Yeah, the Rabbit Inn was because we went to court. Ray Flynn and I were
actually coming back from a wedding when it was happening. I jumped out and I had my
tape recorder and I interviewed people who were still bleeding from the head, and we used
that tape. We went to court on that and some police got suspended or fired. So that was
reported but we were testifying on the city council on that incident the next week when Larry
DiCara came up—he was a city councilman—he whispered in Ray’s ear, “A black guy just
got killed on Old Colony Ave.” And it was like, “Whoa,” and we just stopped. He actually
hadn’t been killed; he got beat up. Right next to Blockbuster there on Old Colony and
Dorchester Street. They pulled him out of his car and he ran into a house. And this is what
was the everyday thing going on then. There were gangs roaming around and it was just—it
created a lot of havoc. It created a lot of needless violence.
WILDING: Could you talk about the arguments for and against the decision? Do you feel
comfortable with that?
WALLACE: Yeah! I mean, I understood that the school department dragged their feet on
what they said was racially balanced schools. In actuality we were shipping black kids who
were going to inferior schools to white areas that had inferior schools. The schools—the
schools were the same. They were just shifting people around. It just didn’t make any sense.
The black kids—I spoke to hundreds of them and they said to me, “It’s an insult to us as
well.” They said, “Why don’t they fix up the schools? Why don’t they make all these
schools Boston Latin and then we wouldn’t have to worry about this?” And they were
absolutely right. They were more on target than any of the press people, you know. They get
caught up in this, and they didn’t want to have to go to South Boston. They wanted to go
where they wanted to go. They were forced as well.
No one talks about how they were forced to go to Brighton. And one guy—I remember
talking to a guy who had a first-grade daughter. She was six years old and she went to school
in Brighton. Now he would have to take his daughter out at quarter of seven in the morning,
put her on the bus, send her to the other side of the city, not knowing anyone there. You
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know, he said, “I’m not gonna do that. I’m leaving.” That’s what people were doing. People,
rather than sending their kids—this had nothing to do with race. This was the first-grade
student going to Brighton. No one talks about any of that stuff, and of the stupid—I mean, I
spoke to Judge Garrity once. Actually I spoke to him a couple of times, but the first time I
met him was at the Brigham’s [Ice Cream] right down at the courthouse a couple years after
busing started, and I said, “Judge,” I said, “With all due respect,” I said, “had you ever been
to South Boston before you issued that edict?” He said, “I drove through there once.” And I
said, “Ah, figures.”
This guy did more to destroy the public schools, and he admitted it before he died. He said,
“It was wrong. It was wrong. The plan never worked.” And it didn’t. We said that thirty
years ago. We said, This plan will never, ever work. And it hasn’t. The schools have never
gotten better. The schools were better back then than they are right now. It’s unfortunate,
but we’re not going to sit here and tell you we told you so. My problem is that we lost a
generation of kids who just never recovered from that.
WILDING: Joe Moakley, in a different interview, had mentioned that as a politician he and
people around him kind of just didn’t want to touch the issue.
WALLACE: Well, Joe didn’t because Joe was a congressman. That was a little bit different
than being a state rep. Joe had other areas to worry about as well. Joe was representing the
whole ninth district. Joe couldn’t be out there as forceful as Ray Flynn could. Ray had South
Boston, you know. That was his district. And people were looking to Ray because he was
there every day. Joe was in Washington. So Joe kind of stepped back a little bit from it and
let us react. He was against busing but he—Joe got whacked. Joe got hurt by busing. He got
hurt a lot by it because people didn’t think he was out there fighting for them and Joe felt he
was trapped. He knew how bad it was but he was in a different office and he had to do what
he thought was right. A guy actually ran against him in 1976 based on Joe’s whole
performance on busing. His name was Bob Flynn, and Joe beat him, but still. The guy got a
foothold because people had thought that Joe kind of took a walk on them.
WILDING: Now as opposed to reaction, I’m more curious about the initial actions before
the decision. Was there an attempt on the level of state government, like Ray Flynn, to do
something before there was a decision?
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WALLACE: No, because once it got into the courts, there was nothing we could do. There
were some bills filed. One was the Parental Rights Bill saying that a parent had—I think it
was 36-34—had to agree to put their son or daughter on any bus to go outside the district, but
it just didn’t make it. There were a lot of bills filed, but nothing really went anywhere. Once
Garrity stepped in pretty much the die was cast, and this was the way it was going to be.
Come hell or high water, whether the school came to a crashing halt or the kids did well.
I remember being in Garrity’s court—this shows how much he didn’t understand—he said—
we were sitting there; Ray was sitting here, Kevin White3 was sitting next to him and John
Maclin was sitting next to (inaudible) who was a city councilor and neither one of us three
parties were talking to each other. And Garrity said, “Why can’t you three leave this room
right now and work this out?” We just looked at him. He didn’t get the politics behind any
of this stuff. Politics in Boston is tough and it was a lot tougher back then because there were
just a lot of hard feelings.
WILDING: (inaudible) Why do you think you couldn’t work it out?
WALLACE: It was just beyond—the plan was beyond workable. Just beyond workable.
You just couldn’t—you’re taking all the kids out of one town, sending them to another town
and sending all these kids into your town. It was like, “What the hell is this?” You know,
this isn’t what we signed up for. We want our kids to go to the schools we went to. And
there were some plans which said, “Well, let’s do twenty percent. Let’s start at 20 percent.
Let’s start at 10 percent! Let’s start lower than what Garrity needed or wanted or thought
was right and work it in.” But it wasn’t (inaudible). He would never bend. He never bended
on any of that stuff. And then kids got stabbed. There was Michael Faith, got stabbed
December sixth (phone rings, words unclear).4 He almost died. We had asked—we had a
big march the next day, that Monday, but the school was surrounded after that. People just
all of a sudden came up there and all of a sudden there was like five thousand people outside
the school. They wouldn’t let the buses out. It was some pretty heavy stuff.
WILDING: You mentioned a bit about the media a little while ago. Can you talk about how
the media handled the situation?
3
Kevin White (1929- ), a Democrat, served as mayor of Boston from 1968 to 1984.
In December of 1974, Michael Faith, an 18-year-old white student from South Boston, was stabbed outside a
South Boston High School classroom. James White, an 18-year-old black student from Roxbury, was arrested
at the scene.
4
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WALLACE: Yeah, the media was awful. Media was—I remember standing outside
Southie High on the third day and this guy—a well-known—I won’t say his name, but a wellknown national news correspondent who flew in that morning. He said to me—he had
actually flew in the night before because I had had coffee with him that night—and he said,
“Brian, do you think anything’s gonna happen today?” I said, “I don’t know, why?” He said,
“I hope so! I flew all the way in from California. [I] want to see something happen.” Their
opinion was that this was a cauldron just bubbling, and it was. It was bubbling and bubbling.
And they wanted to be there when it blew up.
The Globe especially. The Globe was awful. The Globe was so one-sided on this deal, it
was absolutely—you know, people in Southie stopped buying the Globe thirty years ago
because of the way they handled the situation and they haven’t bought it since. We were
furious with the Globe, the way they handled this. They just made us to be the bad guys. We
were racists, we were bigots, and no matter what we said or did, that never changed. And
that’s why Bill Bulger5 and all those guys have had it out for the Globe ever since. Even the
national reporters—the national reporters were there to see something happen. They weren’t
there to cover anything other than to see, waiting for this whole thing to blow up, and they
wanted to be there when it happened.
WILDING: Were the same things going on in other forced busing communities that were
going on in Southie?
WALLACE: In Charlestown there was. Charlestown—East Boston was exempt from the
plan because of the tunnel, so Charlestown, Hyde Park, Southie, a little bit of West Roxbury,
but Southie was the center. Southie was the focal—there had to be one community that
people would look to and it became Southie. We were probably the most close-knit
community. Charlestown wasn’t as affected. They were affected. It wasn’t total. It was like
40 percent or whatever. But we had parents—there was a group called ROAR, Restore Our
Alienated Rights, which Louise Day Hicks6 led, who Joe [Moakley] had beaten for Congress,
5
William M. Bulger (1934- ), a Democrat from South Boston, served in the Massachusetts House of
Representatives from 1962 to 1970, in the Massachusetts State Senate from 1970 to 1978 and as State Senate
President from 1978 to 1996.
6
Louise Day Hicks (1916-2003), a Democrat, served on the Boston School Committee from 1962 to 1967
(serving as chair from 1963 to 1965), ran unsuccessfully for the mayoralty of Boston in 1967 and in 1971, and
served on the Boston City Council before being elected to the United States House of Representatives in 1970.
She represented Massachusetts’ Ninth Congressional District for one term. It was in the 1970 election that
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and there were parents from all over the city involved in that. They actually went to city hall
and the city council chambers every Wednesday night and there were a couple thousand
people involved in that.
WILDING: Regarding the violence in Southie, do you think the violence was properly
represented? Was it as violent as the media made it out to be?
WALLACE: Yeah. It was bad. It got—the more the media played it up, the worse it got.
They made these kids—I mean, some of these kids had nothing in their lives and all of a
sudden they see themselves on the lead story of the national news. And the more they saw it
the more they thought it was cool. They’re on the—“Look it, there’s my friend on the
national news,” and these reporters interviewed these kids and they’d come down and talk to
them and they made them feel like because they were throwing rocks and because they were
lighting fires and because they were doing whatever that wow, this is interesting. The book
All Souls7 I think tells a lot about that. About how the kids would run—they would light fires
just to have the fire engines come down and just—it was a game. It was a game to these kids,
and the media made them out to be bigger than life. The media was—if the media had never
stepped foot in Southie, things might have worked out, but once they did, they just took it to a
whole different level.
WILDING: So you would characterize the media as the cause of the—
WALLACE: They were the instigators in a lot of the incidents, yeah. I remember one guy,
one camera guy who turned around, whacking a lady in the face with the camera. Not
meaning to—the horses were coming, and the guy turned around and whacked this lady in the
face and her son ended up decking him, and then a whole huge fight broke out. The horses
were awful. They would charge into the crowds and trample people. It was some serious
stuff there.
WILDING: Is there anything else you witnessed personally that you would like to put on
record here?
Moakley lost his first bid for Congress, in part because Hicks was an outspoken critic of forced busing in
Boston, which helped her gain support in South Boston. Moakley defeated Hicks in the 1972 congressional
election when he ran as an Independent so he wouldn’t have to run against Hicks in the democratic primary.
7
All Souls: A Family Story from Southie was written by Michael Patrick MacDonald and was first published in
1999. MacDonald describes his experiences growing up in the projects in South Boston in the late 1960s and
1970s.
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WALLACE: Just a lot of stuff. Just a lot of nasty behavior on both sides. Police—the
police didn’t want to do that. They had a guy named [Robert J.] DeGrazia8, who was the
police commissioner at the time, who didn’t know anything about Boston, putting guys from
Southie on the front lines. They didn’t want to be there. They didn’t want to have to do what
they did. And then having the horses come into the crowds. It was just a horrendous time in
our history.
WILDING: So this was police from Southie fighting their neighbors?
WALLACE: Yeah.
(pause—tape change)
WILDING: In this story, particularly at that time, there is a lot of talk about racism
specifically as a motivation for the problems. How much of a role do you feel racism played?
WALLACE: It played more and more as—it didn’t play a lot in the beginning, I mean
especially when the plan was first announced. Over the summer I think it got nasty. Actually
there was a big fight right behind you in that picture there (motions to picture on office wall
of a beach). There was a huge, huge fight between Columbia Point blacks and Southie right
on the beach there that got national headlines.
WILDING: Can you identify that beach?
WALLACE: That’s Carson Beach.9 It was a couple weeks before school started and you
could feel the tensions rising every day and you knew that something bad was going to
happen. But the more this played out, the more racial it got. I don’t think it started that way.
I think it started with the parents objecting to the plan. I think the racism played more and
more into it to the point where Michael Faith got stabbed up at the high school. People
were—I mean the kids—there was no learning going on at the high school. I had all kinds of
friends working up there—teachers and aides—and the state police were in the high school,
in the hallways. Full riot gear. That’s how the kids had to go to school. There was nothing
8
9
Robert J. DeGrazia served as commissioner of the Boston Police Department from 1972 to 1976.
Carson Beach is located on the South Boston shoreline of Dorchester Bay.
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going on at the high school; there was no learning—it was intimidation.
These kids went to the high school. They were—again—all of a sudden they became bigger
than life as well. It was just a ridiculous way to go to high school. Especially the seniors.
The seniors had gone to three years of just regular high school then all of a sudden, senior
year they’re on national TV every night, being called names, being interviewed on [television
channels] four, five, and seven, being interviewed by the Globe and Herald. It was amazing.
All of a sudden, this transformation that Southie became a focal point in the work for a while
there. Especially the first few weeks of busing. You wouldn’t believe the number of cameras
that were outside there. It was unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable. We had people from
Tokyo, Australia. It was just nuts.
WILDING: How long did the media presence stay in Southie?
WALLACE: Stayed almost the first year. I mean, not to that level. There was always
media outside. I would say the first two weeks, the first month maybe. Yeah, right into like
middle of October it was that saturated and then it kind of dropped off. When they saw the
violence was lessening and lessening—it was lessening and lessening because no one was
going to school. Kids would just leave. And the parents weren’t coming up there because
the kids weren’t in school. And once they saw that—from my point of view the media was
there to see the violence, to see something happen. And once they saw that nothing was
happening, they kind of walked away from it. And they came back in December when
Michael got stabbed. They stayed for another month, nothing happened, and they walked
away again.
WILDING: Now you saw, I assume, and you can correct me here—I’m sure you saw some
media coverage in action. Do you think the media ever skewed things as it was happening?
WALLACE: The Globe skewed it all the time. The Globe skewed it all the time. I read
stories in the Globe and I said, “This didn’t happen,” you know. “Where’d they get this?” It
was a good lesson in journalism for us to see that. And years later some of the same writers
who made things up then were found years later making things up and they got fired for it.
We saw that first hand. It was just—it was a shock to see that the guy would write something
that were both witnessing. It was almost like Johnny Most—he was the Celtics announcer—
and he would say things and you’d say, “Well, where the hell’d he get that?” And it was the
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same way with some of these reporters. Especially the Globe. The Globe was just absolutely
out of control. They said things in their columns and editorials that were just—lies.
WILDING: What was the end result of the decision in relation to the city as a whole?
WALLACE: The end result of the plan?
WILDING: Yeah, of the plan.
WALLACE: It ruined the school system. It still has a terrible effect. We’re still paying
fifty-nine million dollars a year for buses. Kids don’t have schoolbooks. Schools don’t have
heat. We’re paying fifty-nine million dollars for buses. It’s absolutely ridiculous. It ruined
the sports programs. The sports programs in the last ten years have gotten back on track
somewhat, but there was a period there—I would say not the first years, because it wasn’t
actually that bad—the sports was actually able to escape. But a couple years later it was
just—a perfect example, I’m a sports announcer as well, I do games on TV for Boston Public
Schools, and when I was a senior in high school in ’67, if I went to a Thursday afternoon
game at White Stadium, say Southie against BC High [Boston College High School], there
would be probably eight thousand people in the stands. When I do the games now, or the
games when I did them—I stopped two years ago—on a Thursday afternoon there might be
nobody in the stands. Nobody. Zero. And my producer would say—we’re getting ready to
go live, he’d say, “Lock your cameras! Lock your cameras!” Because they didn’t want—if
the ball went into the stands, say somebody kicked the ball into the stands, they didn’t want
to show the stands because there was nobody there so the camera could only go to one spot.
I had a friend of mine, his name was Dukie Walze—Dukie Joyce, I’m sorry. He was a great,
great lineman at Southie High [in] 1963. Moved to San Francisco from ’63 to probably—
maybe ’65 to ’95. And he came back one day; Southie was playing Charlestown, which was
always a huge game. Eight thousand definitely. Because they’re all longshoremen, they all
took the day off, all cops and firefighters from both sides were back. And he came to White
Stadium, and he was almost crying. He said, “Brian, where are the people?” I said, “They
don’t come anymore, Duke.” He just couldn’t believe this. He expected to come home to the
game and there’d be ten thousand people there, eight thousand. He just couldn’t believe it.
That’s what happened. No one ever talks about that. No one ever talks about how the sports
programs were ruined. That’s unfortunate, because I was there. I saw it, you know?
Page 15 of 23
�OH-043 Transcript
WILDING: In regards to the sports program, you’ve actually written about this, I’ve seen.
Could you just talk a little bit about the immediate effect on sports?
WALLACE: The immediate effects?
WILDING: Yeah. I know you wrote a little bit about teams falling apart and things of that
nature.
WALLACE: Well, yeah, I mean—yeah. The first year they played football. They
suspended the season. They suspended the Southie-Eastie game. The Southie-Eastie game
was the biggest game of the year. You couldn’t get a ticket to that Thanksgiving morning. It
was just sold out. Fifteen thousand seats sold out, both sides. And they didn’t play it that
first year, which was—we ended up going down to the park and (inaudible) played
Somerville. It was just horrendous.
And that was—that’s what I’m saying. That was—those things, Southie grabbed that. That
was their focal point. Southie looked to the high school for a lot of things. Sports would be
one of them. The Southie-Eastie game was the biggest thing of the year, and not to have that
was—it was a clear message that he [Judge Garrity] sent. I think he cancelled the game. I
don’t know. He was afraid of violence. We weren’t gonna have any violence at SouthieEastie, you know. Violence was happening everywhere else. Just—it just destroyed—like
my example is perfectly relevant. You go from eight thousand people to none. None. No
teachers, no parents.
Parents—one of the problems we have now is we don’t have parent-teacher stuff because
even today kids from North Dorchester are going to Southie High. Parents are working; they
can’t get over to Southie High, so there’s no give or take with the parents and teachers. And
that still happens today. If you live in Southie, and there’s parent-teacher night at Southie
High that night, parents can go up there after work. Parents aren’t going to travel all the way
from North Dorchester after work. It just doesn’t work and so the school system has failed in
a lot of different levels because of busing. Sports is one of them, I think parent involvement
is another. I think community support is another. Some people don’t even think Southie
High is a part of us anymore. They walk by like it’s not even there.
Page 16 of 23
�OH-043 Transcript
WILDING: You mentioned a second ago, “He cancelled the game.”
WALLACE: Garrity.
WILDING: Garrity? Garrity cancelled the game?
WALLACE: Yep. He was afraid there was going to be violence there.
WILDING: Politically, I was curious as to what the impact of the decision was. Did this
change campaigning after the decision? Did it change the roles of politicians in Boston?
WALLACE: It had an immediate effect on the 1975 mayor’s race. It didn’t have an effect
locally because the local politicians were basically out—they were basically the ones who
were out front. Flynn,10 Bulger,11 Flaherty12—they were basically out front. And it affected
Joe in ’74, ’76 because this guy ran against him saying that he wasn’t a Flynn, he wasn’t a
Bulger, he wasn’t a Flaherty. He wasn’t out there on the lines every day. It had an effect on
that race.
But I think the big race was the ’75 mayor’s race where Kevin White was seen somewhat
leaning towards Garrity’s camp. White said—White never really came out and said whether
he was for or against the plan. He said it was his job (inaudible) and he never—which wasn’t
good enough for most people. In my area they wanted him to say he was with us and he
never did. So Joe Timilty ran against him in ’75. Joe probably would have beaten him, if it
wasn’t for the Red Sox being in the World Series that year. Because it just knocked the
election off the—Joe was gaining a point a day and was within three points of Kevin White
when the Red Sox were in the World Series. And there was a rain delay of three or four days
which knocked him back even further, so by the time people started focusing on the election,
Kevin had regained his momentum a little bit and beat Joe. He didn’t beat him by a lot. Beat
him by a couple thousand votes. But that had an immediate effect on that race.
10
Raymond L. Flynn (1939- ), a Democrat, represented South Boston in the Massachusetts State House of
Representatives from 1971 to 1979. He later served on the Boston City Council from 1978 to 1974, then as
mayor of Boston from 1984 to 1993.
11
William M. Bulger (1934- ), a Democrat, served in the Massachusetts House of Representatives from 1962 to
1970, in the Massachusetts State Senate from 1970 to 1996. He was Senate President from 1978 to 1996. OH014 in the Moakley Oral History Project is an interview with Mr. Bulger.
12
Michael F. Flaherty, Sr., is an associate justice for the Boston Municipal Court and a former state
Page 17 of 23
�OH-043 Transcript
And you know, Ray and Bulger both announced for mayor in 1975, but neither of them ran.
Ray ran for city council and he actually lost. He came in tenth—not many people know that.
He came in tenth with nine hundred votes behind Joe Tierney. But it spawned a lot of
candidates. Jimmy Kelly13 was one who ran. Pixie Palladino14 ran. She was in East Boston,
a Louise Day Hicks kind of person. She ran and got a seat in City Council. John Kerrigan
ran as opposition to me; there was another guy, but Kelly and Pixie were definitely two
that—their only reason for running was busing. And they both won. Across the city.
WILDING: Now do you think the—that these effects on Massachusetts—Boston
particularly—politics were beneficial, or were they negative?
WALLACE: As far as?
WILDING: Overall.
WALLACE: I think that they dissipated. Busing now is in the rearview mirror, so I don’t
think they—at the time—like I said, I think they had an effect on candidates running citywide
who were strong busing—anti-busing candidates, and they ran as such. And people just ran
and their slogan was “No Busing.” That was enough. It wasn’t about taxes or school. “No
busing!” And some of them got elected. So I mean, it wasn’t just Southie. Not just Southie
was against this plan. The city was against it. And you see a picture of “Palladino from East
Boston got elected to School Committee citywide,” and she ran—her platform was “No
Busing.” That had to tell you something. That wasn’t just East Boston that was supporting
her; the whole city was. There were a lot of candidates like that. There were a lot of
candidates who were on just anti-busing platforms, nothing else, getting elected.
WILDING: Was there any other solution to this?
WALLACE: Yeah, sure, yeah. The didn’t have to go—first of all they didn’t have to give
us two months to do it. Last day of school they came out with the plan. Jesus, you know, the
representative.
13
James M. Kelly (1940-2007), a lifelong South Boston resident, represented South Boston in the Boston City
Council from 1983 until his death in January of 2007. He served as city council president from 1994 to 2001.
OH-019 in the Moakley Oral History Project is an interview with Councilor Kelly.
14
Elvira “Pixie” Palladio (1931-2006), an outspoken opponent of busing, served on the Boston School
Committee from 1975 to 1977 and 1979 to 1981. With Louise Day Hicks, she founded the anti-busing group
Restore Our Alienated Rights, or ROAR.
Page 18 of 23
�OH-043 Transcript
teachers were gone. We got it at three in the afternoon. School was out and the teachers
gone. Teachers didn’t know where they were going, didn’t know where they were going to
be teaching. Could have done it over a period of maybe six months. Had meetings in the
communities saying, Here’s what we’re doing. Here’s what we’re thinking of doing. What
do you people think? What if we—? You know, instead it was just, Here it is! Here it is!
You have two months to put this together. You have two months to change everything that’s
ever been known, and do it. And I don’t care how you do it, just do it. Your son’s going—
your son no longer goes to Southie High. He now goes to Brighton High. Your son in
Brighton now goes to West Roxbury High. You know? And that’s it. And your daughter in
the first grade now goes to Brighton. You know? People said, What? What is this? What
kind of society are we living in where we can’t even—where we have no say in where our
kids go to school?
And that was the norm. And that’s why—that’s why it erupted. That’s why people—you can
only push people so far. Especially with their kids. This guy—I’ll never forget this guy,
telling me about his six year old daughter, who he wouldn’t let cross the street without
holding his hand, now getting on a bus to go to Brighton. He said, “What do they expect? I
can’t do that. I’m going to have to move.” And that’s exactly what—you know, you don’t
get that kind of eruption from something that’s even somewhat amenable. It wasn’t
amenable to anyone.
The blacks didn’t want it. They didn’t want to be forced all of a sudden to come over here.
They wanted to go their own schools but they wanted them fixed up. That would have
been—instead of spending fifty-nine millions dollars a year on buses, spend it fixing the
schools up, or building new schools. They didn’t do that. They still haven’t done that. They
built three new schools in the past twenty years. I mean, that would have been the way to do
this. The way to do this would be even to say, Okay, we’re going to take two years, we’re
going to try to build three new schools in Roxbury, a new school in Southie, a new school in
Charlestown, and then do sort of the magnet school approach.15 There were a lot—there
were private schools, there were magnet schools. These were all presented, and he [Judge
Garrity] just [said], “Nah, I don’t want to hear any of that. Here’s what’s happening, it’s
coming down, you better deal with it, you have no alternative.” And we said, No, we’re not
going to do it.
15
Magnet schools are schools offering special courses not available in the regular school curriculum and
designed, often as an aid to school desegregation, to attract students on a voluntary basis from all parts of a
Page 19 of 23
�OH-043 Transcript
WILDING: Can you talk a little bit about Joe Moakley’s role in this period in regards to
busing?
WALLACE: Yeah, like I said, Joe was a congressman, he [Garrity] was a federal judge. I
mean, Joe was in a tough position, being a federal official. The mandate is by a federal court.
He wasn’t a state rep, he wasn’t a state senator, he wasn’t a school committee person. He
was a congressman. As such, he—Joe wasn’t as adamant as some people would have liked
him to be, but Joe thought that that was the role that he had to play. He let the Bulgers, the
Flynns, the Flahertys, the Hicks’, the Palladinos do what they had to do on the local level and
he kind of sat back a little bit. Joe didn’t attend a lot of marches, and that hurt him I think. A
little bit, for a while. But people got over it. They understood. Joe wasn’t the screamer and
yeller. Never was. Joe Moakley was always a behind-the-scenes type of guy. Joe Moakley
was the guy who would get the Democrat and the Republican to agree on something. He was
always the dealmaker, and that wasn’t his style. It wasn’t his style to go out screaming about
this and that and the other thing. He was more conciliatory. And he found himself in a rough
position, you know. Speaking to Joe personally—I had many times—he felt that Judge
Garrity screwed us. But he thought that his position, being a federal official, didn’t allow
him to come out and say that as Bulger and Flynn had said it, because they were local
officials, and that’s the way he played it.
WILDING: Do you agree with his stance on this?
WALLACE: At the time I didn’t. Joe and I had words. I didn’t think he was doing enough.
He was mad that one of my friends was running against him. We worked it out, but at the
time I thought that Joe was—he was avoiding the issue. And talking to him years later, I
realized that he was doing what he had to do. He told me, “Brian, I was a federal official, it
was a federal court, a federal judge.” He said, “I wasn’t a school committee member
anymore. I wasn’t a city councilor.” And I said, “You’re right.” He usually was right.
WILDING: Looking back do you still feel the same way about all this as you did? Has
anything changed?
WILDING: No, I still feel strongly—I feel that Judge Garrity ruined the Boston school
school district without reference to the usual attendance zone rules. (Definition from the Library of Congress.)
Page 20 of 23
�OH-043 Transcript
system. I felt it June 21, 1974, and I feel it March 2, 2005. The guy just didn’t get it. The
guy just threw money—he threw buses at us. He walked away from the system. He had no
clue. This guy had no clue, and he had never been in South Boston. Probably had never been
in Roxbury. Didn’t know any of the people, how they reacted. Didn’t know how we lived,
how we got by, how we got by paycheck to paycheck. Didn’t know the pride that we had,
and just underestimated that completely—the pride and the loyalty we had to our schools.
The high school was more than just a building. (inaudible) It was more than just a building;
it was seen as the focal point of the community. And to take that away—to take that away
just—we said, No, we’re not going to let you or anyone else do that. This is our school. This
is where we went to school. This is where our grandparents went to school. This is where
our kids are going to school. We’re not going to let you take that away.
And everyone said, “Oh, no, you just don’t want the blacks coming in.” It was never that.
But the press would never say that. It was never about the black kids coming in. It was about
us being taken out of there. It’s eighty-five percent black now, but it was always—coming
from my standpoint anyway, it was about him telling us that our kids couldn’t go to our
schools, and that was—but if you read the stories back then it was all about, “Oh, they hate
blacks. They don’t want the blacks coming into Southie.” Some people—some people,
that’s exactly how they felt. There were people—there were racists out there in Charlestown,
there were racists in Southie, there were racists in Eastie. There were racists in Roxbury.
And some people felt that way. They didn’t want blacks anywhere near the high school. Still
do. But the majority of the people rejected this plan because they didn’t want their kids taken
away from their educations and they wanted to dictate where their kids went to school, and
that was taken away from them. And that building was taken away from us.
WILDING: With busing where it is today, are there signs of improvement, or is it still as
bad as it was?
WALLACE: I think some schools have improved. Some schools have—some schools—
they’re just changing the names. They changed the name of Southie High. It’s no longer
South Boston High School, it’s now the South Boston Educational Complex, housing
Monument, Charter, and Odyssey Schools. It’s three different high schools now. So they’re
doing that, and I testified in from of the school committee. I said, “If you think that by doing
this you’re going to erase busing, you’re not going to do it.” I said, “That’s what you’re
trying to do, calling this the Monument High School and Excel High School,” and I said,
Page 21 of 23
�OH-043 Transcript
“You’re not going to do it.” But that’s their idea. We’re dealing with people now who have
no idea about the history of the schools. There are a couple who do, but for the most part
they don’t. I don’t see a whole lot of good going on. Southie High—the Monument isn’t
bad. There is some education going on, but what you should strive to do is strive to make all
the schools like Latin, Latin Academy and O’Bryant. And there’s only three of them. Three
exam schools.
And the other schools have fallen by the wayside. It’s just a—it’s a shame, you know? It’s
really a shame. It’s not only the high schools, it’s the middle schools—Gavin School. Gavin
School, there is no education going on there. They’re fighting all the time. I was there—last
time I was there there were three fights while I was in there. It’s just a horror show. And it
all started with that decision. I feel as strongly today as I did then. And I said to Garrity, I
said, “You’re going to destroy the system. You’re going to destroy public education in
Boston.” I told him that in Brigham’s. And he said, “No, we’re going to make it better.”
And I said, “You just don’t get it.” That should be on his headstone: “I just didn’t get it.”
WILDING: Alright, in closing, is there anything else about this period that you want to have
on record?
WALLACE: No, I think we covered most of it. I just feel very strongly about the media,
about how they slandered us. They betrayed us and they didn’t know us. They never really
wanted to. They had a villain. A perfect villain, Irish Catholics. “They hate blacks.” It was
just so alien to some of us to read that about ourselves, because we never did. I guess we had
a lot of blacks living in Southie at the time, but they never said that. They said it was all
white. It was never all white. Boys’ Club the year before, the club member of the year was
Chris Baker, a black kid from E Street. But that was just swept under the rug. They had an
easy scapegoat with us and it sold papers. And we fought back. And they didn’t like that.
We fought back by stealing Globes and not buying the papers and not letting—putting cars
across the roads so they couldn’t get the trucks out. We did that on a number of occasions.
We fought back, and they didn’t like it. No one knew we fought back, but we did. And they
didn’t like it. And I think that’s—I think I’m more mad at the Globe than probably Garrity
because they at least understood—knew what they were doing. Garrity didn’t. Garrity had
no clue until the day he died how bad he messed up the system.
WILDING: Alright, well, thank you.
Page 22 of 23
�OH-043 Transcript
WALLACE: Okay.
END OF INTERVIEW
Page 23 of 23
�
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers, 1926-2001
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Boston (Mass.)<br />Legislators--United States <br />Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001<br /> South Boston (Boston, Mass.)<br />Legislators. Massachusetts<br />Politicians--Massachusetts
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Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001.
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers (MS 100), 1926-2001. View the <a title="John Joseph Moakley Papers" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/MoakleyArchive/ms100.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> at the Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.
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<div>
<div>
<p>Moakley Papers: Moakley Oral History Project<br />Enemies of War Collection (MS 104)<br /> Jamaica Plain Committee on Central America Collection (MS 103)</p>
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</div>
<div> </div>
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300.7 cubic feet (521 boxes)
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MS 100
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Boston, Mass.
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Wilding, Matthew
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Wallace, Brian
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Massachusetts State House, Boston, Mass.
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59:43
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Part 1
Representative Wallace’s background p. 3 (00:07)
Reactions to and impact of the Garrity decision p. 4 (00:55)
Congressman Moakley’s position p. 9 (15:49)
More on the impact of the decision p. 9 (16:40)
Part 2
More on the impact of the decision p. 13 (00:22)
Lack of regard for other solutions p. 18 (13:48)
More about the effect of busing on Congressman Moakley p. 19 (16:39)
Boston schools today and the legacy of busing p. 20 (19:20)
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Transcript of Oral History Interview of Brian P. Wallace
Subject
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Boston (Mass.)
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Flynn, Raymond L.
Garrity, W. Arthur (Wendell Arthur), 1920-1999
Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001
South Boston (Mass.)
Wallace, Brian P., 1949-
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Brian P. Wallace, a former Massachusetts state representative and longtime resident of South Boston, reflects on the impact of Judge W. Arthur Garrity's 1974 decision in the case of Morgan v. Hennigan, which required some students to be bused between Boston neighborhoods with the goal of creating racial balance in the public schools. He discusses the reactions that he witnessed from both politicians and Boston residents; Congressman John Joseph Moakley's position on the decision; and what he sees as the negative effects of decision on Boston and its schools.
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
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Moakley Oral History Project
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
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March 2, 2005
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Kintz, Laura
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Copyright Suffolk University. This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute. Prior permission is required for any commercial use.
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Moakley Oral History Project: http://moakleyarchive.omeka.net/collections/show/1
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OH-043
-
https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/15912/archive/files/244956fe82fe9be033a72844a5ca1a37.pdf?Expires=1712793600&Signature=mQyMHVzuVTWtvIZ4Fs1sNfPCPiDNhNlHpJCyWxkuoc6Uwxi2V7a1FoLw3z1C4jYWLg5d2M0xasCHGd1ahe-5fMAw0uISBpSNmwh703hbSGPw2Acm1c9filkpgZfviWKGSglFrynI2%7EM0zcEOsH644GRGYTbh76bntbKDVThACt00Z2SIBMshQGnwLoi2zTrZdRRCcuT4Y4YNv28kSg-k1dATwFvxXw1hdRlhEF-VVtfkgkgHP2%7E7QQg78UOnDiCFWPfNX%7EhiAKOdSRO9zjO-qdlnRDBgEsxuWde5TxyqcPLoRZzG39sVYD86Gfq-a3sz0ipnG5Sn3eNVEwQMf6GeOw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM
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PDF Text
Text
Oral History Interview of Anthony Voto (OH-039)
Moakley Archive and Institute
www.suffolk.edu/moakley
archives@suffolk.edu
Oral History Interview of Anthony Voto
Interview Date: February 15, 2005
Interviewed by: Jared Cain, Suffolk University Student enrolled in History 364: Oral History
Citation: Voto, Anthony. Interviewed by Jared Cain. John Joseph Moakley Oral History Project
OH-039. 15 February 2005. Transcript and audio available. John Joseph Moakley Archive and
Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, MA.
Copyright Information: Copyright © 2005, Suffolk University.
Interview Summary
Mr. Anthony Voto reflects on his experiences growing up in East Boston, Massachusetts,
following the 1974 Garrity decision, which required students to be bused between Boston
neighborhoods with the intention of creating racial balance in the public schools. Mr. Voto
discusses his childhood in East Boston; his experiences attending a magnet school; the
appreciation for different cultures and people that he gained from attending a school with a
diverse student body; and the positive impact that he feels the results of the Garrity decision had
on the Boston Public Schools.
Subject Headings
Busing for school integration
East Boston (Boston, Mass.)
Magnet schools
Morgan v. Hennigan (379 F. Supp. 410)
Voto, Anthony, 1966-
Table of Contents
Mr. Voto’s background
p. 3 (00:14)
The beginning of busing
p. 8 (07:00)
Education at magnet schools
p. 9 (08:50)
120 Tremont Street, Boston, MA 02108 | Tel: 617.305.6277 | Fax: 617.305.6275
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Educational values
p. 11 (10:40)
Schools in East Boston
p. 11 (12:00)
Friends’ involvement with busing
p. 12 (12:45)
Mr. Voto’s school experiences
p. 13 (14:05)
Media and violence in East Boston
p. 18 (23:00)
The importance of diversity
p. 22 (30:00)
Final reflections
p. 29 (44:00)
Interview transcript begins on next page
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This interview took place on February 15, 2005, at Suffolk University Law School’s John Joseph
Moakley Law Library.
Interview Transcript
CAIN: This interview was taped on February 15, 2004 [sic-2005], at Suffolk University Law
School. I’m Jared Cain interviewing Mr. Anthony Voto. So, tell me a little bit about yourself
Anthony.
VOTO: I’m going to be thirty-nine years old in April. I was born in the city of Boston. I was
raised in East Boston. Since then I have moved several times to different communities. I live
over in Porter Square now and I’ve been employed by Suffolk University for twenty years as of
last week.
CAIN: Now, have you—what do you consider your home town itself? Is there—
VOTO: My hometown is always going to be where I’m from, it’s—I say with pride and
distinction, as it was back in the days of when Peter Faneuil was walking the streets in Boston,
they’d ask a Bostonian a certain question, and when the person answered they knew right away if
you were a Bostonian. They’d ask, “Well, what’s on top of Faneuil Hall?”, and you had to know
that there was a grasshopper on top of Faneuil Hall, and I’m very proud to say that I am a real
Bostonian. I’ve been questioned by people all over the world because of the way I talk and
it’s—I’m very proud I always say where I’m from. I’m from East Boston. I’ve lived in
Winchester; I’ve lived in a bunch of different communities.
I live—like I said, I live in Porter Square now. And when someone asks me where I’m from I
say I’m from East Boston and that’s where I’m from—and people say it now. They all want to
be from Boston. You meet someone, they’ll say “I’m from Boston” and you say, “Oh yeah?
Well what neighborhood are you from?” They’ll say, “Well, actually I live in Milton” and I’ll
say, “Well that’s not really Boston, huh?” (laughter) I’m a real Bostonian.
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CAIN: (laughs) Good for you. So you grew up in East Boston and that was, let’s see, you were
born in East Boston, or—?
VOTO: I was born in the city of Boston, and the hospital is no longer there—it’s a part of
Brigham and Women’s Hospital now.
CAIN: Okay. And ah—
VOTO: I was born in 1966.
CAIN: Yep.
VOTO: That’s the interesting demographic set—not a lot of people were born in 1966.
CAIN: Yeah, that’s true. So, you lived in Boston until—
VOTO: I lived there, oh—
CAIN: (inaudible)
VOTO: Until I was in my middle to late twenties—
CAIN: Yeah.
VOTO: Until I got married, I moved to different places. I was first living with my wife in
Nahant and before that she was living in Winchester. I lived in Winthrop for a while. I live with
my second wife now; I live in Porter Square—live in the Somerville side of Porter Square.
CAIN: Okay, so we’re here today to talk about the busing of Boston students in the seventies
and during the time of the busing you lived in East Boston, right?
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VOTO: Correct.
CAIN: Okay. And, how old were you at the time, you must have been—
VOTO: From your records it says ’75?
CAIN: Right, so—
VOTO: I thought it was a little bit sooner than that. I was nine years old. I was in the—I want
to say I was in the third grade—second or third grade. And there’d been a buzz about that they
were going to start busing, and my parents weren’t, you know—we definitely weren’t an affluent
family, and I noticed a flight, like kids start to leave—families leaving, going to different
communities.
CAIN: Mm-hmm.
VOTO: Going to private schools, parochial schools. That wasn’t happening in my family; there
was just—none of that was happening. There was no money. And I remember the first time that
students came into my school—I was lucky, I was going to the school in my neighborhood and I
wasn’t bused out, but they bused in—
CAIN: Right, right.
VOTO: —into the school, and at the time we had one teacher who was the best teacher in the
school. She was the best and she was also the disciplinarian. She was an African American
woman, so I had seen one woman and maybe a few other families, you know, like—my
neighborhood was Italian and Irish. That’s pretty much all I knew.
CAIN: Right. So what was your neighborhood like that you lived in?
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VOTO: It was Italian. It was Irish. It was poor; it was—it was a poor neighborhood. That’s
city life.
CAIN: Mm-hmm.
VOTO: It’s a ghetto, and that’s the bottom line.
CAIN: Mm-hmm, yeah.
VOTO: People were poor there, you know?
CAIN: Mm-hmm.
VOTO: People are poor there now.
CAIN: Were you yourself isolated in your neighborhood? I mean, I know that some people
never went to other areas of Boston; did you—
VOTO: I went to certain places. My mother and father, they would try to enrich me. They’d
take me to different parts of town. My father was adventurous. He was the type of guy that
when he was growing up in the city, he’d go to different parts of the city, like for—we’d go to
Franklin Park [Zoo]—perfect example, there’s a place we’d go.
We’d go out by the Arboretum,1 I’d—yeah I’ve been everywhere. At nine, ten years old, pretty
much I was on my own. Wherever the T2 was—we were on the T as kids—no supervision. I
mean, I could end up in Newton on the Green Line. (laughter) This would be at ten years old,
when I’d tell my mother I’m going out for the day, and I’d come back hours later. She would
have no idea that I was in Newton, I was in—on the Red Line heading into Quincy or something
like that. That’s what it was like. (laughter)
1
The Arnold Arboretum is operated by Harvard University and is located in Boston’s Jamaica Plain neighborhood.
“The T” is short for MBTA, the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority, which operates the Boston area’s
subway system.
2
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CAIN: So—
VOTO: I see kids today, ten years old, on the train—
CAIN: Oh yeah, yeah.
VOTO: I see them.
CAIN: Did you find that other kids in your neighborhood really hadn’t been out of the area,
or—?
VOTO: No, a lot of kids in the neighborhood were the same way; wherever the T was, we were
on the T.
CAIN: Same way, huh? Yeah.
VOTO: To the extent we were traveling—no, like, I had been to Florida. You know, a family
trip, but nothing extensive. I mean, I’ve been through New England, New Hampshire. But the
city—I’ve been around the city.
CAIN: Yeah, yeah. So, what was the name of the school that you—
VOTO: Samuel Adams. Samuel Adams Elementary.
CAIN: And prior to them starting to bus the students in, what were the demographics like at
your school?
VOTO: It was Italian, Irish, maybe we had one student of color, but it would be like Cape
Verdean, Portuguese.
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CAIN: Yeah.
VOTO: That was it. It was predominantly Irish and Italian, mostly Italian.
CAIN: Now, do you remember when you—you mentioned earlier but—do you remember when
you first heard that there were going to be students bused to your school?
VOTO: Yeah, you hear from the adults, people were talking at the table—
CAIN: Right, right.
VOTO: Not knowing what’s going on, but—and then you noticed—you started to notice
families leaving, not knowing why they’re leaving.
CAIN: So you didn’t understand at the time—
VOTO: Didn’t understand, right. I was too young, I didn’t know (inaudible).
CAIN: Yeah, yeah.
VOTO: I wasn’t a teenager, I was very young.
CAIN: Mm-hmm. So what was the first day like when they came into your school?
VOTO: It was—it was a shocking experiment. I say it was an experiment because I think they
wanted to see how people reacted. The schoolyard was definitely a better place because after
you had beat everybody in a—you know, a specific sport, and we played games that only—
unique to, like, the city—that most people had never even heard of, but we play them there, and
then—and now you have new kids on the school lot there. That made a big difference, and you
know when you look at someone and—we’re different; we look at each other, but you notice
we’re different right away, but there was no hostility—there was no hostility at a young age.
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CAIN: Mm-hmm.
VOTO: You don’t know—even though, you know, some of adults around you—you hear
certain things, but when you’re still that young, you have to really be twisted to be thinking—
like you saw—you would see, that as time went on it was the older students that had issues
because once someone puts something in your head, it’s tough to get rid of right?
CAIN: Right, yeah.
VOTO: To be against something—I think they were just against it just to be against busing.
CAIN: So do you think that if you were older, you might have had a different—
VOTO: I might have, I might have.
CAIN: Right, because you really don’t know.
VOTO: And then I was—as I got older—when I was in the seventh grade I went to a school,
also in East Boston, but it was what they called a magnet school3—and this is once again where
they bus in students—I don’t know what they call them now but it was a magnet school. And
(pauses) I was in the seventh grade. It was—once again, I was into athletics so I got to meet a lot
of different people because, you know, people play sports; that’s the bottom line. So I really
didn’t have an issue—but there were people that had issues.
CAIN: Mm-hmm.
VOTO: And the school that I went to was from seventh grade to twelfth grade, so here I am a
seventh grader, not—I mean, in a school—like, if you think you’re in the ninth grade—whatever
3
Magnet schools are schools offering special courses not available in the regular school curriculum and designed,
often as an aid to school desegregation, to attract students on a voluntary basis from all parts of a school district
without reference to the usual attendance zone rules. (Definition from the Library of Congress.)
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high school you went to—and you look at the seniors, they’re big—now you’re a seventh grader
in a high school of kids being bused in. Now this is—say I’m only in the third grade—this is
only four years after busing—it’s still a lot of issues, but we really didn’t have—in my school,
for some reason, there wasn’t the issues like they had—like up at East Boston High School,
which was only three or four blocks away. There were issues there. A lot of protests or violence
towards different individuals in a way.
CAIN: You were talking about the older people having issues with it. Do you remember how
your own parents felt about the situation, or—?
VOTO: They couldn’t do anything anyway.
CAIN: Yeah.
VOTO: What opinion could they have? It’s not like they could send me to private school if
they wanted to.
CAIN: Right.
VOTO: And elementary school—I went to the same elementary school that my father went to,
his father went to. And there’s really nothing that could have been—
CAIN: But other elders did have—
VOTO: Oh, people—well, you heard about the white flight—
CAIN: Right.
VOTO: That’s what it was all about—people left ’cause they didn’t want to—
CAIN: (inaudible)
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VOTO: And I got an education. I received a good education—Boston Public Schools. The
bottom line is if you want to learn, you can learn. And I say—I say this, that it’s not the
teachers, it’s not the building, it’s the students. If you put the worse students in the city in
Newton Public Schools, the teachers are going to have the same results. Students don’t—they’re
not going to learn anything if you put the City of Boston—their public school teachers, you put
them in Newton, these teachers are going to look great. Maybe there are some good teachers and
some good things but it’s the students—if you want to learn. Perfect example: one of the best
schools in the state is Boston Latin School, and that’s a Boston Public School.
CAIN: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
VOTO: That by far—it is the best school. One of the best.
CAIN: Did you have any siblings?
VOTO: I had a sister.
CAIN: Okay, and was she affected by this or was she—
VOTO: Umm, yeah. She was to an extent, but not—like, she didn’t go to a magnet school—I
was in a magnet school—she went to a middle school. It was strange how they set it up because
they kind of knew that there were certain schools in the neighborhood that they weren’t busing
into.
But in East Boston, they had a middle school, then they had the school that I went to that was a
middle school, also, and a high school—that was the magnet school. Then there was East
Boston High School which they bused in, but the way the City of Boston does it is like, if you—
I’m not sure of what the exact way it is but I believe, like, if you wanted to do woodworking, like
a trade, you went to East Boston High School. If you wanted to be an electrician, you went to
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Charlestown High School, so they were busing people into those schools so they had specific
trades.
I remember seeing the trouble. I remember seeing on the news, because I always watched the
news, and a lot of it happened over in South Boston. East Boston had its issues, but a lot of it
was over in South Boston.
CAIN: Did you have friends that were—because you said to me before that it was basically a
lottery, right, that—
VOTO: Yeah, you would pick your school. There was no guarantee, that’s why people were
leaving. You couldn’t necessarily go to the neighborhood school. Yes, I had friends that were
bused from that time—I remember more in high school, they’d be bused out to Madison Park.
CAIN: Mm-hmm.
VOTO: They’d be bused to different places in the city. There were issues, you had to worry.
You walked to a certain neighborhood—may not even be the kids in school; it may just be
someone in the neighborhood. But yes, I had friends that were bused.
CAIN: They were, huh?
VOTO: Yeah, I was lucky. I don’t know, I must have hit it right but students were certainly
bused into the school that I went to.
CAIN: How did—now how did your friends feel about the change?
VOTO: They couldn’t do anything (inaudible).
CAIN: Were they upset by it, or—?
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VOTO: They didn’t like it. Most of the kids I know that were bused, I’d say—and a lot of times
you’d have to worry about being robbed or something like that. It was the same way back in the
other way, coming back into East Boston—and there would be neighborhood people, and you
hear—it might not be the students in the school —the problem might be people in the
neighborhood—animosity that’s built up.
CAIN: Yup. So in your own school, did you become adjusted to the demographics shift in your
school?
VOTO: Yeah, yeah, oh yeah. Well when I was younger, yes. And in the magnet school I
actually chose to go there because it was, like I said, it was considered one of the best schools. It
wasn’t quite an exam school because it was—but it was an experiment, it was called the Umana
Harborside School of Science and Technology, and they tried to gear everything towards
science, technology—that’s what they pushed. And I went—I chose that school because you
could choose these schools like the magnet schools, and there were other people in the city of
Boston choosing this school. So I ended up—I didn’t get sent there, I chose to go to this school.
And now it’s a middle school, it’s no longer—it’s called Joseph H. Barnes Middle School.
But I did choose to go there, and the demographics were primarily—it was—it wasn’t even fiftyfifty. I’d say it was predominantly people from other neighborhoods, whether it be Chinese,
Spanish, Black, you know, different cultures—and South Boston, Charlestown. So there was a
lot of different people in this school.
I knew I wanted to go to college, and I figured that was my best shot with no guidance—my
parents didn’t tell me where I could go.
CAIN: Mm-hmm.
VOTO: I would just pick, I mean, you know, I want to go here; I’m in the seventh grade.
CAIN: So you say you chose to go to the magnet school when you went in seventh grade—
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VOTO: Because that would keep me in the neighborhood.
CAIN: Right, because it was in East Boston.
VOTO: It was in East Boston. But if you didn’t choose one of these schools, I think the way it
worked, they could send you to another school.
CAIN: They could send you—right—
VOTO: So they knew what they were doing—there was something going on; I don’t know what
was going on, but if you look at it, you say, “Well why did they start magnet schools?” If you
interview teachers—“What was the purpose of it?” It was—I could stay in that community, but
it was diversity in that school; it was really diverse. It was different. Very few kids from my
neighborhood went there.
CAIN: Yeah.
VOTO: All of my friends, and two of my closest friends. I had, like, dozens—maybe like three
or four of them went to this school. Because you had to have certain academic levels to get into
school.
CAIN: So what was class like when you were in middle school first, when the busing first
happened? What was the classroom like when you started? Do you remember?
VOTO: Umm, there were no issues in the classroom.
CAIN: No?
VOTO: No. Nope. People knew that—a lot of people were there to learn. I mean, there were
fights—I’ve seen fights in the classroom; it had nothing to do with color or anything like that.
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No, there were fights and it would be primarily an East Boston kid, fighting with a South Boston
kid. Dorchester guy fighting with a guy from West Roxbury, or something like that. The only
ones that were really quiet were the Asians. Very quiet. Never started any trouble. They came
to school every day. And very little—in this school, there was very little in the way of racial
issues.
CAIN: So when you went to the magnet school, it was still the same way like that? There
weren’t big racial issues?
VOTO: Nope. Nope. But in the other schools, I know there was. Like you go to South Boston
High, East Boston High. I don’t know why—I don’t know why it was like that.
CAIN: So obviously, at that young age when you were in the middle school, kids typically
didn’t get that upset about being integrated into the classroom.
VOTO: No, I mean, it was nice—I mean, to be honest with you, now you’re getting into middle
school, you’re beginning to be like a teenager and you’re coming into yourself—you’re looking
at different girls. It’s a natural thing, and vice versa, it’s the other way. God created some very
beautiful people and it was a nice thing.
I mean, you learn a lot of things. I learned culture for sure. I learned culture, all different types
of musical backgrounds, which I would have never got if I was in the strictly all this, all that—
like Japan. Japan, it has everything. But to me it’s a boring place. Homogenous to me, I don’t
like it. I like things different. I like to look at something different.
CAIN: Mm-hmm.
VOTO: Rap music, come on. I knew what rap music was before—
CAIN: Yeah, before anybody knew.
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VOTO: Asian music. I knew where Chinatown was.
CAIN: So, I’m sure you think that—to say the class became racially balanced, would you
disagree with that statement, or would you say it became more culturally balanced, I mean,
what—
VOTO: I say more culturally balanced. I mean, okay, within the school I know that they had
the top students in one class and the lesser students in another class. What they did— they had
something—they had some sort of an experiment—I don’t know if this came from the
Department of Education—but they’d put you in these pods in the classrooms. I don’t know
where you went to school, but our classrooms were all glass so you could see in—I swear they
did this on purpose, so that instead of having a closed door, you would look out and see
diversity—you would see diversity and the teacher would—there’d be a person in the pod—
there’d be four teachers and there’d be a person in the pod that could watch the whole pod. It
was—I think it was planned. Subliminally, you’re constantly—if you see something all the
time—
CAIN: Right, then you get used to it.
VOTO: You get used to it. Whereas if the door was closed—it’s like communism in Russia;
once the doors open up, they change—I could be wrong, but it makes sense now that I look back.
It makes sense
CAIN: Yeah, it does make sense.
VOTO: But, when you went to high school, did you have—we had like five or six classrooms,
and we would call them pods.
CAIN: Yeah. Well, we called them quads because we had—
VOTO: But did you have glass windows? We could see—you could see people.
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CAIN: No, there wasn’t glass, but—
VOTO: We could see what was going on. But yeah, the teacher could see.
CAIN: That’s interesting. So—
VOTO: Could be for safety, but maybe not. Your brain is powerful, and they know that.
That’s what they go to school for. Educators, they want to—
CAIN: It seems like a major point you’re making is that—
VOTO: Come on, forget about sitting in the classroom. You have to go to gym!
CAIN: Yeah. (laughs)
VOTO: Think about it, now you’re changing and undressing. It’s a big thing. You know what
I’m saying?
CAIN: Yeah.
VOTO: That’s a big issue. So picture the obstacles that you’d have to overcome.
CAIN: Right.
VOTO: It’s not sitting with you, but just think about you going into your high school, you’re
white, now you’re all changed and you’re in gym, and now you’re changing and you got a
Chinese guy here, a Spanish guy here, a black guy there, black guy there [tapping the table].
Maybe you never came in contact—now you’re actually changing, so—and there were no
problems. I’m telling you, there were no issues. Like in this school—you went to the other
school, there were issues. I mean, there were fights, sure. There was this and there was that.
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But it wasn’t like—people weren’t constantly trying to protest at our school because we chose to
be there. It was the schools that they didn’t want to—like you see the historical perspective—
South Boston. I mean, East Boston High had some issues. I know that because I would hear,
“Oh, they’re fighting up at the high school” or something.
CAIN: So this is at the magnet school you’re talking about?
VOTO: The magnet school was good—it was good.
CAIN: Right, because everybody wanted to be there?
VOTO: Everybody wanted to—pretty much. Most of the people wanted to be there; they knew
why they were there.
CAIN: So you think that with—if you didn’t have a choice in the matter and you were forced,
then that would make hostility rather than—
VOTO: Of course. Who wants your arm twisted? That’s what it was. They were twisting—
and I wonder if they started the magnet school program because—it was a work in progress kind
of thing for them; they had never done anything like this before. You know?
CAIN: Mm-hmm. Now obviously it seems like there wasn’t that much going around your
schools, but was there media around your neighborhood in East Boston, or—?
VOTO: Yup.
CAIN: There was?
VOTO: Yeah, there was media. And we had issues—forget the school busing thing, there
was—they tried to integrate neighborhoods and there were issues about—
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CAIN: How did they try to integrate neighborhoods?
VOTO: Well, mostly like public housing developments in the city, they integrated them.
Before, like South Boston would be the public housing development for the poorer Irish—we
had in East Boston the poor Italians and so on (tapping table) and so on. But I think over the
years, the government started to mandate to the city that you had to have X amount—to have
money. I think it’s still this way today. You had to integrate your public housing.
It’s like anything you hear, you have to have a certain balance or mix. Right now the problem is
there’s an issue with the Boston Police Department. They’re complaining that it’s not integrated
enough. But yeah, when they tried to integrate the neighborhoods there was a lot of animosity.
That I really remember—fights and just violence.
CAIN: So, did you—
VOTO: And that had nothing to do with schools, this is just the neighborhood now.
CAIN: This is just your neighborhood now?
VOTO: Yeah, now, I’m still young, I’m probably not even a teenager—but it was all centered
around the housing projects. It still happens to this day. You hear about it. Like Charlestown,
there’s always problems.
CAIN: Mm-hmm. So in your neighborhood you really didn’t find that any violence started as a
result of the busing or anything, did you?
VOTO: No. No, I don’t think it had anything to do with busing. I just think they just saw it as
outsiders coming in. It would be like any kind of outsider who came in. You’d be an outsider
and you’d be tested. But they had to leave and, I mean, I know a really good person, if I could
get in touch with you to interview and he really went through it because he’s African American,
and this guy—and he’s one of those guys, he’s from East Boston, and he’ll always be that. He’s
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a really good guy. And he would tell us stories about what it was like when his family moved in
and things people would say and do to him, and he’s a really nice guy. People have (inaudible).
It took years and years before they can integrate the neighborhood again. Now, if you look at
East Boston, it’s predominantly minority, which that wasn’t happening in the ‘70s and ‘80s. It
was like—it was really, We’re going to keep people out, we’re going to keep people out. I mean,
they fought an airport—to keep an airport out, people. When it came to fighting against—“We
don’t want people to move in”. And that’s what was going on. Now it’s diverse, it’s a diverse
neighborhood. Really diverse.
CAIN: So as time went on, did you find that—obviously, you didn’t have a real first-hand
feeling of any dissent with the busing because you chose to go to a school later on that was a
peaceful environment. But did you find that anything changed over the years, for better or
worse, because of the busing in your neighborhood? Did you find that anything changed? You
know, like people that were against it in your neighborhood—not necessarily you but—or for
it—did they change their minds as things happened or things went on?
VOTO: (pauses to think) Some people did. Some people never liked it and the people that
didn’t like it were the ones who sent their kids to private schools.
CAIN: So from your first-hand witnessing, you saw that basically anybody that didn’t like it,
you saw pretty much everybody pulling out—
VOTO: They went to the parochial schools. Even in a poor neighborhood, there’s a class
system, and the class system existed. The poorer you were, the less likely you were to go to the
parochial schools and that’s just the bottom line. There’s nothing you can do. When all you
have is all you have, you become resourceful and you adjust to it. What would be the point if my
mother and father couldn’t send me to a parochial school, but then they’re telling me they don’t
like what’s going on in this school? They have to make the best situations, say, The only way
you can get out, and not just getting out of the school, is to get out of the neighborhood and make
something of yourself—is to get an education. And that’s all they could do. They didn’t have
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�OH-039 Transcript
the money, they didn’t have any other resources, we didn’t have a parent or a relative that would
sign for us to go—we didn’t have that, and a lot of people didn’t have that. Come on, I don’t
think they were going to the parochial schools for the Catholic education.
CAIN: Right.
VOTO: I mean these people, they weren’t going to church on Sundays, and the education is just
as good. I’ll match whatever I got from my education—as I went on in high school, I did
transfer to a private school on my own, because it was my choice, my choice. Because I thought
I’d have a better chance at getting into a college. But once again, I chose to go—I went to school
in Lynn, which is a diverse community—I wanted diversity. I went to an all-boys school for one
year and I hated it. I couldn’t stand it. So I left.
CAIN: Mm-hmm.
VOTO: So you could tell, the people that didn’t like it, did it—without saying, “I don’t like it,”
they don’t have to say whether they like it or not. They just—they did it. People that didn’t like
it and said it, are the people that you would see on TV. They’re telling you—because they can’t
do anything, they can’t do anything.
CAIN: So you found living in East Boston that it was one of the more peaceful neighborhoods
per se, as to, basically, if they didn’t like it—they went to parochial schools.
VOTO: They went to parochial schools, yeah.
CAIN: So do you think because of that, that’s why there wasn’t that much violence or upset in
your area?
VOTO: Yeah. Yup. That’s true. “Let the city send people wherever they want; they can put
them in this neighborhood, but we’re not sending our kids to those schools.” That was the
Page 21 of 29
�OH-039 Transcript
mentality of a lot of people, or they would just move out of the neighborhood, move into the next
town, which would be a town like Winthrop, which is the next town over. Small town.
CAIN: So, as you—you went from middle school where this first happened, and then you went
to the magnet school. Did you develop any strong feelings that you had towards a side, as to this
is—“It’s good that they’re integrating these kids through busing,” or “No, I don’t like it”? Did
you develop any strong feelings?
VOTO: I didn’t think about it. You don’t have—when you’re that age even in high school—
you can talk to the top high schools students. Yeah, they may be book smart, but they don’t have
wisdom. It took me years and years later as an adult to see that when I go to certain places,
certain neighborhoods in the city, I go into—I’ve been all over the world. I’ve been in Africa,
I’ve been the only white person in a situation where there’s Asians or blacks or Hispanics, and
I’m not intimidated and I feel comfortable and I adjust to the situation. Whereas I see a lot of
people, they get very nervous when they’re in a situation that they’re not comfortable with their
surroundings. But at that age, you don’t know. It’s tough.
I bet though when you talk to the older people—I’m not talking about older students; like the
teachers, people that were really there, they’ll have an opinion. They’ll say, “It worked,” “It
didn’t work for me”—because I don’t know what they were trying to accomplish, all I know is
that I was put into a situation, and mine was a little bit different. I wasn’t the person going on
the bus. People on the buses were coming in. I chose what I wanted to choose. You’re going to
hear all different stories. You’ll hear a different story. I remember, they’d give you a form and
you’d pick what school you’d want to go to and my parents—I loved them and everything—but
they weren’t educated and they [said], Oh whatever you want to do. As long as you get an—
study, study, study. You’ve got to learn, you’ve got to learn.
CAIN: So now that you’re at your age now, do you find that you’ve learned a great deal from
your youth, with going to the schools that you did?
Page 22 of 29
�OH-039 Transcript
VOTO: Oh yeah, definitely. You know, people talk—they talk a good game like they’re out for
diversity and this and that. But if you look at where most people live, they want to live in a
suburb, they want to be with only this kind of person. It doesn’t matter—that’s what they want.
They’ll say, Oh yeah, well why don’t you live in a neighborhood like that? I knew. I grew up in
a neighborhood that was—like I said, it was one way and then it switched, and I stayed there. I
didn’t leave. Go to a neighborhood like Dorchester; very diverse neighborhood. Huge
neighborhood. People lived there for life. They could say, “I want to leave.” Some people do
leave; they may want to live in Scituate or something like that, but, people say they want things
but they really don’t. Action is the best thing, you know?
CAIN: So exactly what things made you look different—just more that you should try to just go
out in the world?
VOTO: I honestly believe that from being exposed at a young age to difference—me being the
type of person that—like I said, I’ve been in a lot of different countries. And I grew up and
when I do look back, I say, “Whoa, here I am, standing on a hill in South America,” and I say to
myself, “I’m just a guy from East Boston.” But if I was close-minded, I might not have taken
that trip. But I think that it’s because of all of the years of having diversity—real diversity. I’ve
definitely grown. I was always curious about the other person, because the other person was
always there, you know?
CAIN: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
VOTO: If two different people walked in the room, it’s only human nature—if you don’t have
the ability to say, “Well maybe I might be interested in what this person next to me is going to
say,” then you’re not doing yourself any good at all. So I learned to be able to be around people,
and adapt to my surroundings. It doesn’t happen a lot in the United States.
CAIN: So you definitely contribute the fact that you met different ethnicities in your middle
school when they started coming in through the busing, and then when you went to the magnet
Page 23 of 29
�OH-039 Transcript
school—because you were young—you started at a young age—you think that that was most
important in—
VOTO: Yes. Definitely.
CAIN: And if it had started later—
VOTO: If I was a teenager, my mind probably could have been made up by—people are
impressionable, you know?
CAIN: Yeah.
VOTO: People will do whatever they’re pushed to do, or they look up to adults, and sometimes
they’re looking up to the wrong people. Come on, when I was a kid I thought that you could dig
a hole to go into China. But then when I first met someone who was Chinese, I realized—I
looked on the map and said, “You can’t dig a hole and get to China!” You know what I’m
saying? A lot of people have never, at that point, they never had seen anything except what they
knew, and you’re looking at your own people. Come on, Irish and Italian neighborhoods, there
was a class system. It was totally segregated. It’s the same way in Chinese neighborhoods,
there’s segregation. In their own neighborhoods there’s segregation, in Hispanic neighborhoods
and in African American neighborhoods. It’s a fact that there is this group, and then there’s that
group. And by throwing everything up—you get a pot, if you just keep everything warm and
don’t mix it up—you know, you got soup, what happens? It starts to burn. Once you mix it up,
it makes for a good stew.
CAIN: I like that. So although you weren’t yourself—because you were too young, so young,
and because you didn’t find yourself directly related with, per se, the busing, now when you just
know about it and hear about it, and you think about all of Boston, do you think that it was a
good thing that they did it?
VOTO: I think it is, yeah.
Page 24 of 29
�OH-039 Transcript
CAIN: You do?
VOTO: Yeah.
CAIN: Simply because of the integration of the cultures you’d say?
VOTO: Yeah. Not only should they bus to the city of Boston, but they should do it Greater
Boston-wise. Get kids from Newton and ship them into the inner city. You know, I played
football, I played baseball. We’d go to Newton, we’d play them and we’d hear them say, “Those
kids are carrying knives!” We weren’t carrying knives! We didn’t have to carry knives. We
would just beat you up and that was the bottom line! We were hardened kids, but people say
things and that’s just not true.
CAIN: And if—
VOTO: People probably felt the same way about them. People coming into—when I say them,
I mean people coming into a neighborhood that’s different, whether it be—I don’t know what it
was like. I don’t know what it was like at that young age but I know that the people that I know
that were bused into the minority neighborhoods, they had issues, just like they had over in the
white neighborhoods, and I think it was always revenge. “Oh, this person this.” “Oh, when they
come over to Southie High, we’re gonna do this.” I don’t know. I’d like to hear what it was like
from going into those neighborhoods because I don’t know because I wasn’t there.
CAIN: So you can only say that you think it was good because based on your own experience, it
was a great experience for you?
VOTO: Yeah. Someone that was bused out into a big neighborhood, like a white person going
to a black neighborhood, might say, “I didn’t like it.” I stayed in my own neighborhood. I had
my safety net around me. I had a safety net. I felt good in my own neighborhood but within
there it was totally different. My school day was different—it was totally different. I could tell
Page 25 of 29
�OH-039 Transcript
my friend, “Oh yeah, I met this girl today.” “Oh, what’s her name?” “Oh, her name is Yung
Chim We,” or something like that—whatever a Chinese name was. Oh man, you know?
Whereas my friend in the other school was like, “Oh, I talked to Kelly today,” you know what
I’m saying? There’s a big difference.
CAIN: Yeah, yeah.
VOTO: And my friends do say I’m a little bit different then them. And I can go up to anybody
and start a conversation. Culturally, I know certain cultures. Like know that a Chinese name
means something. When you meet someone who’s Chinese, it means something. I wouldn’t
have known that!
CAIN: Yeah. If it hadn’t had happened.
VOTO: You think that they name us—okay, you’re Jared, I’m Anthony, but their name when
they name them—it means something. Which I would have never known that.
CAIN: And obviously you made plenty of friends all across the spectrum when you went
throughout your schooling.
VOTO: Yeah.
CAIN: By having that experience.
VOTO: Names. I can remember some of the names of some of these people. And I do run into
them occasionally here and there in the city—in a city of what? Six hundred thousand people?
It’s very common to run into people. I can be seen all over the city. You never know where you
could see me, and people have seen me and said, “What are you doing over here?” And I say,
“Well, I’m just hanging out, I’m getting some food over here.” Like Saturday, I’ll be in
Chinatown eating dim sum with a friend of ours—my wife’s friend, who’s Chinese. And my
wife’s from New Hampshire and she never had dim sum. I said, “Oh, I’ll take you for dim sum.
Page 26 of 29
�OH-039 Transcript
You need to eat dim sum, it’s good!” So now we’re going with her Chinese friend. Have you
ever had dim sum?
CAIN: No, what is it?
VOTO: See, you have to go for dim sum. I’m going to take you for dim sum!
CAIN: (laughs) Okay.
VOTO: Yeah, I’m going to take you. I’m going to email you and say, “Oh, we’re going for dim
sum!”
CAIN: (laughs) Alright.
VOTO: You sit at the tables, and they’ll ask you, “Do you want to sit together?” I’d say, “No, I
don’t want to sit together, I want to sit with the Chinese family,” or whoever’s in there at the
time, and you sit at the table and it could be a Chinese couple—another Chinese couple with
their kid and you eat dim sum. They say, “Oh, you want chopsticks?” I say, “Sure, I’ll eat with
the chopsticks,” and women push around this cart and—what look like little dumpling things—
I’m trying to explain to you—like dumplings, like Peking ravioli. They might have prawn or
something. And you just point, and then she takes it and you get a card and she punches your
card, puts it on the plate—and you can have, like, five or six different things on your plate, you
see what I’m saying?
CAIN: Yeah. Yeah.
VOTO: Instead of having, “I only want to eat meat and potatoes,” but the thing is, you don’t
know what’s coming by on the cart. It isn’t on the menu. And you look and see, Do I like that?
It’s definitely a good place if you want to go and impress someone. Like a girl, you want to go
and take her on a date, and she’s never done it, she’ll say—and if she thinks that this is dumb or
[she’ll say], “Eww,” or something like that, then that’s not the girl you want to go with because
Page 27 of 29
�OH-039 Transcript
you want someone who’s open-minded. And my son’s ten years old and he’s been to dim sum a
dozen times. We go—we like it there.
CAIN: So obviously it seems like—would you say that this—going through younger schooling
days—do you think that it was one of the best experiences you’ve had, or—?
VOTO: Yeah. Definitely. When I was in that magnet school, so I was in the eight grade, and
they’d let you try out for varsity baseball and I was good enough. I made the team, and they
said, Okay, we’re going to play you on JV [junior varsity]. There was a lot of kids on the team
but they’re all from different neighborhoods. So as time went on, now I’m in high school, I get a
call from one of the kids I played with—he was on a team in Roxbury. There was me, and then
my friend who was a pitcher, and he said, “I want you to play for us. You’re going to play on
our team.” And most of the team was black—we were these white guys. He said, “Oh, you’re
going to have to take the train,” because we didn’t have the car—we couldn’t afford a car. So
we took the train, we get off at Dudley Station, and—he was worried about us; he was worried
that people would give us a hard time, but we were two white kids with baseball uniforms on and
people didn’t really hassle us that much. I don’t think we—we never had an issue. But I would
have never met them, I would have never played baseball—I played baseball all over the city. I
played in the Park League system, and this guy had a team. He tracked me down and I met him
at that school, and he was one of the best players on the team. So I made friends all over the
city.
CAIN: Did you?
VOTO: Yep.
CAIN: Obviously, you wouldn’t take any of it back.
VOTO: No, no. It was a good thing. (laughs) At 600,000 people, that’s really only a small
neighborhood—the city of Boston.
Page 28 of 29
�OH-039 Transcript
CAIN: Yeah, that’s true. So, is there anything else you want to say about—
VOTO: No, thank you for the interview, and I hope that I was a little bit enlightening and
humorous.
CAIN: Absolutely.
VOTO: And wherever you go with it, good luck. But I think it was a success. I hear a lot of
intellectuals say, Oh, the whole busing thing! But for me, it opened my eyes and it gave me the
sense that I can get out. I have a chance to get out. I can do something different. Every day, I
grew up across from the harbor, and I see buildings, skyscrapers—now, there’s significantly
more—and I’d look and I’d say, “Wow. That’s the American dream right there. That’s the piece
of apple pie. And I want my piece.” And I believe this is because I was surrounded by different
things. If I was just going one way—if you look at a white wall all the time like I’m looking at
right now, it’s pretty boring. Like, you eat your eggs the same way—that’s pretty boring. It’s
good to have eggs Benedict or over-easy.
CAIN: Yeah. Good parallel.
VOTO: That’s it!
CAIN: (laughs) Alright, thank you Anthony.
END OF INTERVIEW
Page 29 of 29
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers, 1926-2001
Subject
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Boston (Mass.)<br />Legislators--United States <br />Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001<br /> South Boston (Boston, Mass.)<br />Legislators. Massachusetts<br />Politicians--Massachusetts
Description
An account of the resource
The paper of Congressman John Joseph Moakley are housed at the Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.<br /><br />The sample of items from the Moakley papers exhibited on this site are used courtesy of the Moakley Archive and Institute. The full collection documents Moakley’s early life, his World War II service, his terms in the Massachusetts House of Representatives and Senate, and his service in Congress. The majority of the collection covers Moakley’s congressional career from 1973 until 2001. A <a title="Moakley papers" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/MoakleyArchive/ms100.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> the the collection is available online. <br /><br />The collection is open for research. Access to materials may be restricted based on their condition. Please consult the <a title="Moakley Archive" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/moakley" target="_blank">Moakley Archive and Institute</a>, Suffolk University for more information.
Creator
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Moakley, John Joseph, 1927-2001.
Source
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Congressman John Joseph Moakley Papers (MS 100), 1926-2001. View the <a title="John Joseph Moakley Papers" href="http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/MoakleyArchive/ms100.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> at the Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.
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Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University, Boston, Massachusetts.
Date
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1926-2001
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Items highlighted from the Moakley papers in this online collection are made available for research and educational purposes by the Moakley Archive & Institute. <br /><br />Copyright is retained by the creators of items in the Moakley papers, or their descendants, as stipulated by United States copyright law. This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the Moakley Archive & Institute. Prior permission is required for any commercial use.
Relation
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<div>
<div>
<p>Moakley Papers: Moakley Oral History Project<br />Enemies of War Collection (MS 104)<br /> Jamaica Plain Committee on Central America Collection (MS 103)</p>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
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Moakley Archive and Institute, Suffolk University.
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300.7 cubic feet (521 boxes)
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English
Type
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Text
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MS 100
Coverage
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Boston, Mass.
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Cain, Jared
Interviewee
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Voto, Anthony
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Suffolk University Law School, Boston, Mass.
Transcription
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See PDF transcript
Original Format
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MP3 audio file
Note: Original audio recording is available for listening at the John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
Duration
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45:06
Time Summary
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Mr. Voto’s background p. 3 (00:14)
The beginning of busing p. 8 (07:00)
Education at magnet schools p. 9 (08:50)
Educational values p. 11 (10:40)
Schools in East Boston p. 11 (12:00)
Friends’ involvement with busing p. 12 (12:45)
Mr. Voto’s school experiences p. 13 (14:05)
Media and violence in East Boston p. 18 (23:00)
The importance of diversity p. 22 (30:00)
Final reflections p. 29 (44:00)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Transcript of Oral History Interview of Anthony Voto
Subject
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Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
East Boston (Boston, Mass.)
Magnet schools
Description
An account of the resource
In this interview, Anthony Voto, who grew up in East Boston, Massachusetts, in the 1960s and '70s, reflects on the impact of Judge W. Arthur Garrity's 1974 decision in the case of Morgan v. Hennigan, which required some students to be bused between Boston neighborhoods with the goal of creating racial balance in the public schools. He discusses his experiences attending a magnet school; the importance of diversity in schools; and what he sees as the positive long-term outcomes of Garrity's decision.
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
Source
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Moakley Oral History Project
Publisher
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John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute at Suffolk University, Boston, Mass.
Date
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February 15, 2005
Contributor
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Kintz, Laura
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Copyright Suffolk University. This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the John Joseph Moakley Archive & Institute. Prior permission is required for any commercial use.
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Moakley Oral History Project: http://moakleyarchive.omeka.net/collections/show/1
Format
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PDF (Computer file format)
Language
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English
Type
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Oral history interview transcript
Identifier
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OH-039
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Sargent Report
Subject
The topic of the resource
Boston (Mass.)--History
Boston (Mass.)—Race Relations--History—20th Century
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Civil rights--Massachusetts--Boston
Race awareness—Massachusetts--Boston
Race relations--History--20th Century
School integration--Massachusetts--Boston
Segregation in education--United States
Description
An account of the resource
Sargent Report was commissioned by Mr. Gillis, the Superintendent of the Boston Schools. It addressed the physical conditions of the school buildings in Boston, and offered recommendations to modernize or replace school buildings. The report found the schools in Roxbury and South Dorchester needed to be replaced.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boston Public Schools
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Department of Implementation 1952 to 1996; (bulk 1976-1985); Boston Public Schools - Desegregation-era Records Collection.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Boston City Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1962-05
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Kearney, Laurie L.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the Boston City Archives. Rights status is not evaluated.
Relation
A related resource
View the <a href="http://www.cityofboston.gov/images_documents/guide%20to%20the%20department%20of%20implementation%20records_tcm3-23341.pdf">finding aid</a> to Department of Implementation 1952 to 1996; (bulk 1976-1985) for related information.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
JPEG (Image coding standard)
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
0450001.113.006.068
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Boston (Mass.)
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mayor Kevin H. White records, 1929-1999 (Bulk, 1968-1983).
Subject
The topic of the resource
African Americans--Segregation
Boston (Mass.)
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
School integration--Massachusetts--Boston--History
White, Kevin H.
Description
An account of the resource
The Mayor Kevin H. White records, 1929-1999 (Bulk, 1968-1983), are located within the City of Boston Archives. <br /><br />The sample of items from the Kevin H. White records, exhbited on this site, are used courtesy of the Boston City Archives. <br /><br />A <a title="Kevin White finding aid" href="http://www.cityofboston.gov/images_documents/Guide%20to%20the%20Mayor%20Kevin%20H.%20White%20records_tcm3-50275.pdf" target="_blank">complete inventory</a> of materials in the collection is available in the online finding aid. The colleciton documents aspects of life and the mayoral career of Kevin H. White. Elected the 45th Mayor of Boston in 1967, White won subsequent elections for second, third, and fourth terms (1971, 1975, and 1979, respectively). <br /><br />The records of this city official are arranged in 11 series: Correspondence, Subject files, Briefings, speeches, etc., Press, releases, Proclamations, Alphabetical files, Survey files, Boston Committee files, Reports and publications, Audiovisual material and Memorabilia. The collection is open for research.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
White, Kevin H.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<span>Mayor Kevin H. White records, 1929-1999 (Bulk, 1968-1983). View the <a title="Mayor Kevin H White records" href="http://www.cityofboston.gov/images_documents/Guide%20to%20the%20Mayor%20Kevin%20H.%20White%20records_tcm3-50275.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> to the collection for more related information.</span>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Boston City Archives.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1929-1999
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fleming, Kerry, Irene Gates, Olivia Mandica-Hart, Ryan Miniot, Kayla Zaremski and Kristen Swett, Boston City Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Rights status is not evaluated for some materials. Materials in this collection created by Kevin H White under his tenure as mayor are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 United States License.
Relation
A related resource
Mayor Kevin H. White records, 1929-1999 (Bulk, 1968-1983), Boston CIty Archives. View the <a title="Mayor Kevin H White records" href="http://www.cityofboston.gov/images_documents/Guide%20to%20the%20Mayor%20Kevin%20H.%20White%20records_tcm3-50275.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a> to the collection for more related information. View the <a title="Records of the City of Boston" href="http://www.cityofboston.gov/archivesandrecords/collections/" target="_blank">Records in the City of Boston Archives</a> for a comprehensive list of other collections.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
250.0 Cubic feet
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Image
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
0245.001
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The phone banks for busing information.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Busing for integration--Massachusetts--Boston
School integration--Massachusetts--Boston
Segregation in education--Massachusetts--Boston
Description
An account of the resource
Volunteers working the phone bank giving out busing information.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Unknown
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Mayor Kevin H. White records, 1929-1999 (Bulk, 1968-1983). Box 214: photographs and negatives, 1973-1975.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Boston City Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1974-09
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Carpenter, Rebecca A.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This item is made available for research and educational purposes by Boston City Archives. Rights status is not evaluated.
Relation
A related resource
<span>For more information view the </span><a href="https://www.cityofboston.gov/images_documents/Guide%20to%20the%20Mayor%20Kevin%20H.%20White%20records_tcm3-50275.pdf" target="_blank">finding aid</a><span> to the Mayor Kevin H. White records, 1929-1999 (Bulk, 1968-1983).</span>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
JPEG (Image coding standard)
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Still Image
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
0245001-1974-09-024
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Boston (Mass.)
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Harvard Study
Subject
The topic of the resource
Boston (Mass.)--History
Boston (Mass.)—Race Relations--History—20th Century
Boston Public Schools
Busing for school integration
Civil rights--Massachusetts--Boston
Race awareness—Massachusetts--Boston
Race relations--History--20th Century
School integration--Massachusetts--Boston
Segregation in education--United States
Description
An account of the resource
The Harvard Report on the Schools in Boston, commissioned by Boston Redevelopment Authority, recommended abandoning the worst schools (many of which were located in Roxbury and North Dorchester).
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boston Redevelopment Authority
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Department of Implementation 1952 to 1996; (bulk 1976-1985); Boston Public Schools - Desegregation-era Records Collection.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Boston City Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1962
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Kearney, Laurie L.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This item is made available for research and educational purposes by the Boston City Archives. Rights status is not evaluated.
Relation
A related resource
View the <a href="http://www.cityofboston.gov/images_documents/guide%20to%20the%20department%20of%20implementation%20records_tcm3-23341.pdf">finding aid</a> to Department of Implementation 1952 to 1996; (bulk 1976-1985)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
JPEG (Image coding standard)
Language
A language of the resource
English
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
0450001.113.002.001
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Boston (Mass.)